Devin Burke

Habits & Health episode 29 - Devin Burke

Habits & Health episode 29 with Kevin Burke, who is a professional speaker, bestselling author, coach, workshop facilitator and founder of Empowerment Wellness Solutions, a company focused on empowering individuals and organizations to increase their capacity and performance.

He is also a Certified Sleep Science Coach and the founder of Sleep Science Academy, which helps people stop suffering and start sleeping using a unique holistic approach based in science.


The Sleep Advantage: Optimize your night to win your day – Devin Burke

A free opt-in for Devin’s book:

No Death, No Fear 
No Death, No Fear 
by Thich Nhat Hanh
Favourite quote:
“There’s no place to go, to get what you already have. And there’s nothing to do, to become what you already are”

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Related Video Content:

The Devin Burke interview:

This video is related to an episode featuring Greg Potter


Tony Winyard 0:00

Habits and health Episode 29.

Jingle 0:03

Welcome to the habits and health Podcast, where we believe creating healthy habits should be easy. Brought to you by an educator and coach for anyone who wants to create a healthier life. here's your host, Tony Winyard.

Tony Winyard 0:20

Welcome to the podcast where we give you ideas on ways to improve your health and create better habits to improve your health. Today's episode is with Devin Burke, who is a professional speaker, best selling author, coach, workshop facilitator, and the founder of empowerment wellness solutions, which is a company focused on empowering individuals and organisations to increase their capacity and performance. He's also a certified sleep science coach and the founder of the sleep Science Academy, which helps people stop suffering and started sleeping using a unique holistic approach based in science. So we're going to find out a lot more about how Devin helps people with sleep and this sort of issues that he's often facing the people are having real problems with. So that's this week's episode. We're Devin Burke, hope you enjoy.

Welcome to habits and health. And my guest today is Devin Burke. How you Devin.

Devin Burke 1:23

Fantastic. Thanks for having me on the show, Tony.

Tony Winyard 1:26

Hey, well, I'm looking forward to the show. Because regular listeners of this podcast will know that sleep is my main priority in life, I made a commitment to myself last year, sleep is my number one priority in life. So I always enjoy talking about sleep.

Devin Burke 1:43

Fantastic. Well, I am in total alignment with with your priority there and happy to share there's a lot to talk about.

Tony Winyard 1:52

And I guess we should explain for people wondering, so what we talked about. So you're an expert in sleep, you've done a lot of studying in sleep, so could you tell people more about what it is you do?

Devin Burke 2:04

Yeah, so essentially, I help people all over the world who have chronic insomnia getting stay asleep naturally using holistic approach based in science, so they don't have to rely on sleeping pills. And it's how I got there is a whole story in itself. But I'm happy to share that. But in a nutshell. What we do is we support people to, to sleep the way that they're biologically designed to sleep. And so a lot of times people have it's a lot of its psychology, and a lot of its physiology and it's also environment. So we have a unique sort of framework that we we help people through in order to get the result.

Tony Winyard 2:47

Well, you touched upon in in that little intro you and you touched upon how you got there as an interesting story.

Devin Burke 2:54

So I always get the question. Oh, so you must have had sleep, you know, it really bad sleep problems to be able to, you know, and and honestly, I disappoint people, I say no, actually, I'm a fantastic sleeper. I used to think that sleep was something that I just took for granted, like everyone sleeps great. And I didn't really think about it. And it wasn't really until a client of mine, I'd studied all different types of healing modalities over over really like a decade, from nutrition to movement, you know, psychology, so many different aspects, different mentors and programmes and courses and trainings. And I was supporting people, specifically a lot of high performing entrepreneurs. And one of the problems this this particular client was having was, he couldn't sleep. And so he's like, Hey, can you you know anything about sleep? Can you help me with this? And I said, honestly, I don't. And so but I said, Let me look into it. And so when I started to look into the science of sleep, I just went down a rabbit hole, I had no idea that so much went on in the night and how powerful important sleep is. And also what a massive problem it is for so many people. And really what it does, not only to your physical health, but your relationships and your productivity into every other aspect of your life. And then I looked into what was available to help people that had this problem. And I said, Hmm, there's a massive opportunity here to support people. And I started to experiment with this client say, Hey, listen, I'm gonna, if you can, you know, if you're open to experimenting, I'm open to learning and testing. And, you know, we were able to help him. And then I said, if I can help one person, then I can help, you know, 1000s of people. And that zooms me up to, you know, four years later doing just not giving people the tools and the frameworks and the support to really solve the problem. And so how do you do you sort of do it typically on a one to one basis or or sort of face to face or online or how do you normally Weren't? Yeah, yeah, it's online. So we support people all over the all over, like I said, all over the world, mostly in United States. But we have a framework and a programme that people go through as well as coaches that support people through that framework specifically, with for results. That's we we implement what works and what doesn't work we throw away but we have a system around what it is we do. And I've been more than happy to share how that system works and what it is. Yeah, yeah. be fascinated.

Tony Winyard 5:32

Are there any similarities, for example, with CBTI?

Devin Burke 5:38

So great question. And now does, and we do use some CBTI techniques, but we use a lot of other techniques, as well,

Tony Winyard 5:46

I guess we should mention for anyone thinking "What the hell is CBTI"?

Devin Burke 5:51

yeah, cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia. So that's really the sort of the gold standard outside of sleeping medication for dealing with insomnia. And, you know, so when I really started to look into cbti, has some amazing techniques that are effective, but also has a lot of downfalls and a lot of things that keep people stuck. And so I started to look at, well, what, what, what's available and what other components would help people that are not in that specific philosophy and system. And I discovered a couple things. And then tested those things and got amazing results. So one of those things is, I'll just share with you tracking. So in traditional cdti, you know, they have you keep a sleep diary that you know, which causes you to look at the clock, which creates more anxiety. It also it's it's not really accurate, because you're in and out of consciousness. So we, we use technology to take all that out. You know, so we leverage technology to sort of solve those sorts of pieces and that specific sort of bucket. Another thing is not having the tools to really accept the discomfort that comes along with implementing some of those tools like sleep scheduling, or stimulus control. They're really giving people tools to understand how acceptance, what acceptance is, and how do you embody acceptance, not just intellectually, but physically, so that your body can get into a rest and digest state or a parasympathetic state to then allow sleep to happen. These are just some of the things that I found to be tremendously beneficial for people beyond just a traditional sort of cbti sort, of course, if

Tony Winyard 7:41

So you mentioned tracking just sent it. So is that like, some kind of wearable? Or how is it tracked?

Devin Burke 7:47

we use what's called the Oura ring. It's kind of like the gold standard in wearable sleep trackers. And, you know, for some people, the thing, you know, you can't manage what you don't measure. But unfortunately, if you don't have the proper systems, tools and support, and you're measuring your sleep, and you do have, you know, a chronic sleep issue, it actually can backfire. Because you're getting this information, it's telling you, hey, you're you're sleeping terribly, but you don't know what to do about it. And then you go online, and you start reading about sleep hygiene. And you start saying, Okay, well, I got to make my room cold and dark, take magnesium, and I have to do all these things. And when you do those things, they don't work, then it puts you you know, in the spin of Oh crap, there's something really wrong with me, which creates more stress creates more unrest. So really, you know, when we support clients, we always we start with, how are you thinking about sleep itself? You know, your thoughts and beliefs about sleep, your thoughts and beliefs about what happens when you don't sleep? And the tricky thing is, Tony, a lot of those thoughts and beliefs are actually true. But by dwelling on them or really focusing on them, they create more what you don't want, hmm. And so it can get really paradoxical, and a lot of the things which is why one of the reasons why I love solving this problem for people and, and I'm just so excited to get this information out to more people is there's so many things within sleep that seem like they make sense. They seem like they would help you solve the problem that actually don't so there's a lot of counterintuitive things that people just don't realise that they're they're doing that are actually keeping them stuck some of those things, you think, Oh, I'm not sleeping? Well, I got to spend more time in bed. No, do not spend more time in bed if you're not sleeping. Well. You know, another thing take naps do not take naps decreases sleep pressure, right. So those two things seem to make sense. But in the end, they give you a little short term comfort for Unfortunately, the sacrifice for the problem. To continue, yeah. So there's a lot of paradox in solving insolvents sleep, at least the sleep challenges that we see which really we we help people that are that have kind of run the gamut of sleep hygiene and maybe cbti, and maybe sleeping pills and all that.

Tony Winyard 10:21

So there are a few things that you just said that I want to kind of dig further into? So let's start off with going back to the Oura. So for anyone who's listening, and maybe is not familiar with with that, and there's obviously many other wearables, you know, the whoop, and Fitbit, and and it will also various other variables, why would you suggest to someone that may be the Oura ring would be a good idea for them?

Devin Burke 10:43

Yeah, because you can't manage what you don't measure. So just, you know, just like, if you had high cholesterol, you go to the doctor, and they'd say, Okay, well, you here's your test, you have high cholesterol, now you can go on a diet, or you can take this, this medication choices, yours, when you have information, you can take action on that information. So that's, but again, I think where people go wrong with that is they don't get the proper support, or tools, they try to do it by themselves. We all need support, everyone needs support. And oftentimes, pride gets in the way, or maybe it's you know, a story about we don't have the resources to get the support, we need, you know, a lot of blocks that people have from getting support. But if you have information, and you have somebody that can support you to take intelligent action on that information, it's transformational. It really is. So that's why, you know, I'm a big believer in, in measuring things.

Tony Winyard 11:43

And, and letting people know, like about sort of deep sleep and REM, and so on, which I guess many people are very unfamiliar with. Yeah, so

Devin Burke 11:52

we I mean, we can talk a little bit about the science asleep, I love Yeah, you know, so there's, you know, there's definitely different stages of sleep that we we go through each night. So, you know, there's essentially, REM and non REM sleep, different stages, non REM sleep, stage one, stage two and stage three. And then there's REM sleep rapid eye movement, which is dreaming sleep. And when we talk about quality of sleep, we're talking about Delta sleep, or stage three, we're talking about REM sleep, or dream sleep. And those are kind of when people talk about increasing sleep quality, those are the stages of sleep. The other stages of sleep are just as important now, because you know, they get you to those stages, you know, light sleep and transition from wakefulness to, you know, being unconscious. And so we go through several cycles, if you're, if you're getting seven, eight hours a night, four to five cycles, every 90 minutes, we're going in and out of these different stages of sleep, and they each kind of have their own. From a physiological level, they each have different beneficial things that take place in those stages. You know, I think it's it's important for people to realise though, it's first and foremost, at least the way that we see it is we want to make sure that you're getting enough sleep, then we want to make sure that that enough sleep is the best sleep it can be. Because oftentimes, people as you know, Tony, they just don't prioritise or protect sleep. They're not, or they're not getting enough of it. And so first and foremost, let's make sure that we can get you enough sleep and then we'll we can worry about what's actually, what's the quality of that enough,

Tony Winyard 13:32

if that makes sense. Because let me give you an example. There's There's someone I've been speaking with recently, who's, who has an issue, she almost every night, same thing happens, she goes to bed around about 11 o'clock. And she wakes up around three o'clock. And sometimes she's able to get back to sleep. But very often by four 430. She just stopped she can't sleep anymore. So she's regularly sleeping four to five hours. And she and she's been this way for quite a while. What what kind of things would you suggest that she try for example?

Devin Burke 14:08

Yeah, that's a great, that's very common. That's what we call chronic maintenance, insomnia. So there's two different types of insomnia. There's onset insomnia, which is people that have issues initiating sleep. And then there's maintenance insomnia, which has, people have issues, waking up in the middle of the night, not being able to get back to sleep. And so you know, a cbti technique for people that have that wake up in the middle of night, and they're not able to get back to sleep. First and foremost. compressing their sleep window to increase sleep pressure would be like one of the techniques. Another technique that's even more powerful and important, though, is really understanding acceptance. Because what happens is people wake up in the middle of the night, and I bet you this is what's going on with with this person you're describing. They wake up in the middle of night, and it's the problem isn't that they wake up in the middle of the night. The problem is what they make waking up knee, and then what they do or don't do. So what most people do is they wake up, they they get frustrated that they're up. And that frustration puts them their body in a hyper aroused state, which then doesn't allow them to go back to sleep. Yeah. And so, you know, if, if I was speaking with this particular person, I would really help them identify Well, what are the thoughts and the beliefs that are keeping them from really accepting that they're awake in the first place. And there's a difference between intellectually thinking that you're accepting something and actually embody body meant of acceptance. And so I would say that that would be a really powerful thing to guide that particular person to, to understand at a very deep level, how to do that.

Tony Winyard 15:55

What do you think about the sort of tech things around like the chilli pad, and the eight, pod and all these sorts of things that can help people with temperature and so on,

Devin Burke 16:07

I think they're fantastic. I am a big believer in better living through science, and technology. And so, you know, again, those things are really, we're going to help with sleep quality, they're not going to really solve insomnia. You know, people have this idea, like, Oh, I'm gonna get a chilli pad, and I'm just gonna sleep amazing. No, it'll help you get more deep sleep for sure. And there's a lot of science around that, I mean, our bodies have to drop one to two degrees just to initiate sleep. So having a cool room, or having a device like a sleep eight pod, or you know, a bed jet, or even jumping in a, you know, a hot shower, that then cools your body off or doing something that helps manage your body temperature can absolutely increase sleep quality, but it's not, it's not gonna solve your insomnia, if you have insomnia.

Tony Winyard 17:06

What kind of people would best be using that kind of thing? So? So it's not as you say, it's not for someone who's got insomnia. But who would it really help those kind of devices? on that?

Devin Burke 17:16

Great question, Tony, it really is for people that that are into optimising the 1/3 of their life that they spend in bed. So it could be athletes, it could be people that don't have insomnia, that just want to sleep better, you know, that want to get, see if they can, they can increase the time, they're in deep sleep or REM sleep, and see what that'll do. As far as their cognitive performance and their energy the next day. I would say that's really what those tools are useful for, which is a much smaller demographic than you know, there's, there's over 40 million people that have insomnia in the States, I'm not sure what the number is, globally, but that number is definitely increased. But I like to say there's like three buckets that I've put people in. There's people that don't sleep well, but it's not really a problem, they don't prioritise sleep, they don't really have good sleep hygiene and maybe not taking care of their health. That's a big portion of the world, then there's people that have insomnia, which is a smaller portion of that portion. And then there's people that sleep well, that want to sleep better. And that's an even, that's probably the smallest portion. And that's really where these tools have, like, you know, optimization with with bedtime tech can be very, very beneficial.

Tony Winyard 18:42

The way I see it, at least, one of the things I find was the right word, I was gonna say Interesting, interesting is not the right word. But horrifying, maybe, is how many people are horrified by when you when you explain to them the benefits of a wind down routine. And the all they see is that they're going to be missing all this TV time. And they're not going to be able to do this, that and the other end, and they don't see that for some reason, they just unable to see how much of a difference it will make to their lives, they just think about aren't going to be missing on this TV and whatever.

Devin Burke 19:19

Yeah, and that's it again. So that's kind of the bigger portion of people right that are prioritising sleep they don't know the true value of what amazing sleep creates. Hmm. And so I think for the for most people, really connecting with how important sleep actually is, can be a motivating factor for them to say, you know what, tonight I'm going to turn off the TV and I am going to do like this breathing exercise or I'm going to, you know, do some stretching or reading or, you know, disconnect, maybe some prayer or meditation or whatever it is that can kind of buffer your, your, your day from your night and transition into a peaceful rest. I think for those people, it's really sometimes sharing with them, Hey, this is what you're missing out on. Another challenge, too, I think is people don't really understand how bad they feel until they start to feel good. So people think, Oh, you know, I sleep, okay. It's not that big a deal, you know, and they're not measuring it. So they really don't know. Yeah, right. And sometimes if you've thrown an aura ring on someone that watches TV that's complaining about making this bedtime ritual, you know, the time to do that. They see Oh, wow, like, I watched TV, and I had a big glass of wine and a doughnut before I went to bed. And man, my sleep really was terrible. They actually can see it's kind of like getting a blood test, right? You see it? And then you have the then you have the motivation. Okay, well, now you know what it's doing. Do you want something else, and that can be really empowering for people. Hence, again, measuring.

Jingle 20:55

We hope you're enjoying this episode of the habits and health Podcast, where we believe that creating healthy habits should be easy. If you know a friend or a loved one who might be interested in learning simple habits to improve their health, then please share this podcast with them. We also invite you to subscribe, and to leave us a review on your favourite podcast app. Now, back to the show.

Tony Winyard 21:21

So when someone comes to you, and they've got some real, that they haven't got insomnia, but they've got some real issues with trying to get to sleep or maybe they wake up too often, or whatever the case may be. What is the realistically the shortest period of time they could expect to have to work in it to start getting some real benefits and improvements?

Devin Burke 21:41

Yeah, you know, it's I never like to put timelines on things because that creates expectation, which creates more pressure, and actually can do the complete opposite of what we're trying to achieve. So everybody's everybody, every body is different. Right? So everyone has different lifestyle, different age, you know, different needs lives in different places. So it really isn't like a one size fits all, like just like one diet isn't right for everyone. Right? There's I don't think there's one sort of silver bullet fix for sleep. That is right for everyone. It's it takes experiment, Ting and it takes an openness and a willingness to change. And I think also a big part of that is being able to embrace the discomfort of change. And it just yeah, so it's really hard for me to answer that.

Tony Winyard 22:34

I guess what I'm trying to get at is to to reword it because I didn't work very well. So I think everyone wants results so quickly. So it's more of a case of because people expect results so quickly, what would be what would you I mean, I appreciate everyone is very different but what would you say to people January like you need to give it at least X number of days What would you say x might be for most people?

Devin Burke 23:01

Yeah, I mean if you're if you're committed to making some some real changes, you should be able to see changes I would say at least within two weeks right? and really start to notice a difference but again, it depends on what you're changing what you're implementing. Like are you limit Are you you know, not drinking as much caffeine Are you not drinking alcohol? You know, are you committed to a wine down routine? Are you taking breaks throughout your day so you're not building up all this tension and stress in your mind body system that needs to be released? You know, like so you know some some simple things that that you know, I can share that are easy to remember and helpful for people you know, three to one sleep three hours before you'd like to be asleep Nope, no more food two hours before you like to be asleep no more work one hour before you want to be asleep. You start your wine down routine, your bedtime ritual, you know, your relaxation, kind of no screens and just it's really simple to remember three to one sleep You know, so if those people that are listening to this implemented three to one sleep and they didn't have insomnia Yeah, they would definitely notice a difference within I would say maybe even as soon as a week of doing that. But you generally you know, it takes it takes time for for lifestyle change to actually be felt. And, and again, if you're measuring it then you can kind of see it which can create that motivation to continue to do it. Because usually you're you're giving up something or feels like you're giving up something in the short term, that maybe whatever that is, is actually it out the the positive outweighs the the pain of giving that whatever that is.

Tony Winyard 24:47

What do you do you think many people understand about sleep opportunity, you know, giving themselves enough sleep opportunity.

Devin Burke 24:55

I think most people don't don't most most people do not prioritise and protect sleep. They think it's a waste of time. And they don't realise how powerful and important it is, for their health, for their longevity, for their cognitive performance. And so like, that's, I think the the conversation is starting to change now, you know, with scientists like Matthew Walker, publishing a lot more, you know, really interesting science around what actually happens when you don't prioritise and protect sleep, which inadvertently has created a lot more insomniacs. But yeah, it's,

God, I think if people just realised how important it is, I think they would start to create more of an opportunity to get more of it. At least I believe that.

Tony Winyard 25:50

So for the people you've worked with, what is, and I appreciate they all had different issues,, and so all require different advice and whatever. But what is the change that's made the biggest difference to most people?

Devin Burke 26:04 know what it is? It's actually it's acceptance. acceptance, it really is. It's, it sounds so simple. But just one more in resistance of anything, it creates more tension and stress. And when we're specifically talking about sleep, and people have, you know, these patterns running there, there's a lot of different psychological patterns that kind of lead people to not being able to sleep well, and having insomnia, but the biggest, I think, honestly, every tool that we give clients, it seems like acceptance is the one when people really get that and understand how to implement that. It's it really seems to change their their results.

Tony Winyard 26:52

What would you say to people listening who think the answer is sleep medication?

Devin Burke 27:01

You know, so I first and foremost, I'm not anti medication by any means, I think there's a time and a place for medication. Now, most people are, what they don't realise is those are, they're abused, there have, they become habit forming, they're over prescribed, their band aids, and there's a time and a place for a band aid. But they end up leaving a band aid on or taking a bit one band aid off and put another band aid on isn't the solution that's you're addressing, you're treating the symptoms, you're not addressing the root cause. And so, you know, if, if, and again, there's a time and a place for for that. But unfortunately, most people just don't understand the time or the place. And it really is so unfortunate, because they are pretty much the worst medications you could take. I mean, from from a science side effects standpoint. It's, they're terrible. To be To be frank. Yeah.

Tony Winyard 27:56

And it leads a lot of people end up far worse, after a few months and years, and they were in the first place before they started. Yeah.

Devin Burke 28:05

I mean, it's, it's an it's really crazy. And I we support people and have supported people that have been on these medications for decades, literally, decades. And, and, you know, it's, it's, it's, but you don't know what you don't know. And it's not the it's not doctors faults, because doctors are trained to prescribe medication, they don't really, they don't know that there's other possibilities out there, or they don't have the time to, to kind of provide that level of support. So it's not really doctors fault. It's really it's the system, pharmaceutical companies. You know, it's it's billions and billions of dollars, sleep medications, and it's Um, so, you know, it's, it's, you know, greed, and it's, it's pharmaceutical companies. I mean, they're, they're happy to keep writing these scripts. And again, there's a time and place for some of these medications. I'm not anti medication by any means whatsoever. So hopefully, I'm not coming across that I am. It's just there's a, you know, using them the right way, with the right mindset is very important.

Tony Winyard 29:09

What can you think of an example of some anyone that you've worked with? where they've maybe someone who's who's had them been really surprised by the results that they've got from working with you? Yeah,

Devin Burke 29:23

yeah, actually. So there was a one woman we worked with who was taking sleeping medications literally for 30 years. And you know, she, she thought that she she started first and foremost, she thought that you would never be able to restore her natural sleep. Because of this has been a 30 year problem for her. She's been flying with a chemical, sedate her for 30 years. She was at a point where she was actually losing her memory. She's sometimes she was having a hard time remembering her name. It was really affecting her and it was the Medicaid Plus a lack of sleep. And through implementing the tools and receiving the support and her really doing the work. And it does take work, it's not as easy as taking an Ambien or Lunesta, or Clonazepam or all the other things that people take, she was able to naturally restore sleep. And she, not only did she get off all her sleeping medications, and she was on a few, she also was able to stop taking the antidepressant that that she she had been taking, and she's totally medication free. And she's sleeping. And she still is, and this was years ago. So it's possible if if if people are willing to do the work,

Tony Winyard 30:40

and I guess, well, it's not simply that she improved her sleep. I'm imagine there were so many other benefits that she she got as well.

Devin Burke 30:49

Oh, yeah, I mean, she was able to get back to work. I mean, her whole life changed, literally, I mean, her relationship with her husband improved, her energy improved, you know, her memory came back, she was able to, you know, she wasn't embarrassed anymore, because she was forgetting people's names or leaving keys and in weird places, and forgetting about them. So like her, she got her life back. And that's really the power of when you are able to get good sleep, and allow your body to do what it's designed to do. Just like our heartbeats, we don't have to think about it, just like our lungs, inhale, and exhale, we don't even think about it sleeps, one of the things we don't really need to think about. And, you know, when you get enough of it is good quality sleep, it can be life changing in office,

Tony Winyard 31:35

and I think a lot of people don't realise that. There's so many issues that that they're having, and they don't realise it, sleep is probably going to be the biggest contributor to, to fit one, maybe not fixing the issue on its own, but the shoe the biggest help to fixing that issue.

Devin Burke 31:54

It's the biggest lever, Tony, I love that that's like your your number one pillar, it's it really is because when you're not sleeping, you could be eating all the right foods, but you're gonna crave sugar like crazy, you're not gonna have the energy to exercise, you're going to be grouchy and irritable, it's gonna affect your relationships. So it's like, it really is, you know, like an emotional first aid. It's, it's, it allows your metabolism your body to actually heal, it gives you energy, it's, it's just, it is this amazing thing, which then can also, you know, this is a challenge, you know, when I when I speak about sleep this way, sometimes what happens is people put it on a pedestal. And then that creates this expectation and this anxiety around Oh, all I need to do is sleep. And my life will change over problems we fix. And in some cases, yes. But having that expectation and putting all that pressure on it actually keeps you from peaceful sleep. It's very tricky.

Tony Winyard 32:56

So someone has that issue. And they are, they are now in a situation where they they've got so much expectation, what would you advise them to do? What would be a good step for them to take?

Devin Burke 33:07

Yeah, would be to really identify the attachments and desires and expectations and to help that person see if those attachments and expectations are actually keeping them from what they want. So aversion and attachment, that's what creates the most suffering for people. If they're either attached to a certain outcome or a certain timeline or have expectations, and the reality is in meeting those expectations, then it creates frustration and fear, doubt and worry, which keep people stuck. So really, what happens is when you actually start to show people the thinking, that keeps them stuck. The body's an intelligent machine, the mind is is a is amazing. It's it's an it's an amazing thing, when you actually can connect with the blind spots that are keeping you stuck. So really analysing those those attachments to those expectations and, and seeing well is having that helping you or not helping you and allowing people to really see the ways in which they are keeping the problem going. Hmm.

Tony Winyard 34:16

You mentioned earlier that for someone who's got some real sort of sleep problems, and you know, maybe you're around things, insomnia, or even if it's close to insomnia, that they probably shouldn't be napping because of the whole adenosine thing but

Devin Burke 34:29

who would you say napping is good for great for athletes? grateful for people that don't have insomnia. You know, it's napping is incredible. It's an incredible way of restoring the body. I mean, naturally our body temperature drops, you know, a couple degrees around two to 3pm and that's why most of the world near the siesta. You know it's just somehow we in I think, the Western world we forgot about, you know, work life balancing in harmony, and yes, so napping can be a very powerful tool to reset the mind body midday, it's fantastic.

Tony Winyard 35:09

What about the duration of the nap?

Devin Burke 35:13

I would say 20 minutes, you know, you don't want to really get into a full deep, you know, delta sleep or you know, you don't want to get into delta sleep when you're taking a nap. 20 minutes seems to be like the optimal time for for a nap. Anything longer than that you might start to dip into that delta sleep, and then you wake up and you're kind of, you know, groggy and sort of, maybe more tired than when you took the nap. So timing is is important when you're when we're talking about optimization of naps, for sure.

Tony Winyard 35:42

So what is you you want them retain? What do you do every night?

Devin Burke 35:46

Yeah, that's great. Great. I love this question. You know, so for me what it looks, it changes, it changes. And so what it's been as of lately, some things don't change, and some things change. But what the things that I'll talk about things that don't change and the things that changed, things that don't change, as I always make a cup of tea, always have some type of worm beverage, that's kind of just triggers my mind and body, hey, it's time to kind of mellow out sip, it's slow. And the thing that changes really the physical practice that I have, so sometimes it might be stretching and foam rolling. as of lately, I've been using what's called a T machine. And I'm not sure it's it's explaining you put your legs in it kind of moves your legs back and forth. And it helps move length and blood in your body. And it just really puts you in a really nice relaxed state that'll have a warm shower or hot shower, and I get in bed and I read and then the lights out.

Tony Winyard 36:55

Do you tend to read, before you're going to bed? Do you tend to read something different than you would say during during the day?

Devin Burke 37:04

I do. Yeah, I tend to read spiritual books. So Eckhart Tolle, or, you know, the book that I'm reading now is "No death, no fear" by Thich Nhat Hanh. Things that are that are just, I don't know, I just find that reading spiritual texts at night is soothing. And so that's, that's my practice.

Tony Winyard 37:28

And so is that. So you mentioned, something's changed? Oh, is it? What aspects of that? Is it that the changes are changeable?

Devin Burke 37:35

Yeah, the things that change is really the physical practice. So am I am I going to be the consistently stretching? Or am I going to be going for a walk? Or am I going to be on the machine, or, you know, what, this is those things, kind of the physical component of my practice changes. And sometimes it changes daily, like, I kind of feel into what I feel like I need or what would be exciting to me. And then I listen to that. Sometimes it's you know, it's it's sort of just breathing practice or, or meditation or, you know, some of the other things that I think playing guitar, you know, playing music, you know, just kind of strumming the guitar. So that, you know, things come in and out. I kind of just listened to what I feel like I need to put me in a relaxed space.

Tony Winyard 38:33

There's one component that you just mentioned of your wind down routine that 99% of British people would definitely be up for that as a cup of tea.

Devin Burke 38:43

Yeah, as long as no caffeine, herbal tea. Yeah, I love tea, though. Yeah, I'm a huge tea drinker. I love it. It's all kinds of tea with caffeine without a bed at night. It's usually you know, some type of herbal tea like Cammomile or ginger or maybe a valerian root or Kava Kava, or something like that.

Tony Winyard 39:05

It's not stuffed full of sugar and milk?

Devin Burke 39:08

No, no, no, that's fun. That's for tea time, but not right before you go to bat.

Tony Winyard 39:15

You touched upon just now about books. Is there a book that's really moved you, that really stuck in your mind or that you've read in the last few weeks, months? years? Whatever?

Devin Burke 39:27

Yeah, you know, the one that I'm reading right now, I would say is is really powerful. And that is the No Death, No Fear by Thich Nhat Hanh . And it's a beautiful book about about death and dying, which, which really is interesting. There's a lot of things around sleep and death. People have some, it's, you know, it's like when you die, you're the Big Sleep, right? But yeah, lately for me that that's a very powerful book. It's it's really speaking to me It's just beautiful. He's a beautiful writer and poet, sage?

Tony Winyard 40:07

Well, I'll put a copy of that in the show notes. I'll put a link to that book. So and if people want to find out more about you and get in contact with you and your sort of social media, of course you doing whatever where's the best places to

Devin Burke 40:21 That's more my speaking website. But sleep Science Academy is where we support clients and you know, different social channels, YouTube and Instagram and all that fun stuff can be found on either either one of those websites. Yeah.

Tony Winyard 40:47

Finally Devin, is there a quotation that you particularly like?

Devin Burke 40:53

Yes, there is. It's a I'll just read it because it's on a postit note right in front of me. It's "There's no place to go, to get what you already have. And there's nothing to do, to become what you already are".

Tony Winyard 41:13

And why does that resonate with you?

Devin Burke 41:16

It just speaks to the truth. It just cuts through all the BS it just when I when I read that. To me it just cuts through all the illusions of when I get this I'll be happy. I'm not enough all the stories all the programming that most of us have from society and from this being in this world, that little statement just this just rings really true for me and connects me to peace.

Tony Winyard 41:47

And so much so that you've got it on a post it on your computer!

Devin Burke 41:51

it is I'm looking at it right now. It's right in yet. That stays right in front of me because I got a I got to read that often throughout the day to get connected to it.

Tony Winyard 42:02

Devin, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it's been a great episode. And I'm hoping a lot of people will get enormous benefit from some of the some of the wisdom that you've shared. So thank you,

Devin Burke 42:12

Tony. Thanks for having me. And thanks for all the work that you're doing in the world to help inspire people to really take better care of themselves so that they can live more joyful, peaceful, energised, happy life,

Tony Winyard 42:28

Next week, Episode 30 is with Dawson Church PhD. He is a specialist in EFT tapping he is a best selling author, and award winning researcher. And he has a book called Bliss Brain: The neuroscience of remodelling your brain for resilience, creativity and joy. We're going to find out a lot more about what EFT is, what all this tapping stuff is that people talk about, about neuroscience and manifesting it. And so that's next week's episode with Dawson Church. If you know anyone who has issues with sleep, maybe they've really struggling to get better sleep. Please do share this week's episode with Devin with them and hopefully that will help them improve their sleep. Hope you have a great week and see you next week.

Jingle 43:17

Thanks for tuning in to the habits and health podcast where we believe creating healthy habits should be easy. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review on your favourite podcast app. Sign up for email updates and learn about coaching and workshop opportunities at See you next time on the habits and health podcast.

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