Jane Blackman is a celebrant and helps people to celebrate life, whether that be a wedding, funeral or naming ceremony. The way that she personalises the events she does makes for a far better experience and far more relevant.
- How a celebrant can deliver a far more personalised service for the couple at a wedding
- Can deliver ceremonies virtually anywhere such as on the beach, in a garden or your favourite restaurant.
- Celebrating someone’s life is the direction that Jane aims for at a funeral and is a trend that most people far prefer.
Her love for the work she does shines through in what she says and she has won awards for the valuable work she has now done for many years.
Tony: Welcome to Exceeding Expectations, the show about creating exceptional experiences for your customers. The guests on the show typically have the mindset of loving to over deliver on their customers expectations and they always try and think of creative ways of how they can do that with each customer they work with. On today is Jane Blackman. Jane is a celebrant. If you’re not quite sure what a celebrant is, that will all be explained in due course. She helps people to really celebrate life. So, we’ll hear a lot more from Jane right now. Hope you enjoy the show.
So in today’s episode, I am speaking with a lady called Jane Blackman. How you doing, Jane?
Jane: I’m very well. Thanks Tony.
Tony: Jane is a celebrant. For many people who are probably still not quite sure what the celebrant is, do you want to explain what a celebrant is?
Jane: Yes, I will. I’ll explain. So a celebrant is a person who creates and leads a ceremony. They do it in a very bespoke way. They get to know the people involved in the ceremony. They write the ceremony in advance. There’s often lots of discussion between the celebrant and the people who the ceremony is for; whether it’s a funeral, a baby naming, a wedding, vow renewal, and obviously alternative types of ceremonies. Therefore, the people who the ceremony is for, know exactly what to expect on the day because of the discussion that’s taken place. They’ve often seen the ceremony script prior to the day as well. That’s the case not only for weddings, but also funerals, baby namings, etc. So it’s a person who takes a very personalised, bespoke ceremony.
Tony: Therefore, it is very different. So I mean, most people, if they’ve been to a wedding that hasn’t been in a church or they’ve been in a wedding in a venue or in a wedding venue itself, they, the person that they often see performing the ceremony is normally a registrar from the council.
Tony: That is quite a different experience to a typical, to many celebrants, I would say. When would you …?
Jane: Yeah, absolutely a very different experience because a registrar doesn’t have the luxury, that we have as celebrants; of having the time to spend with the couple who they’re going to do the wedding for. So therefore, unfortunately, for them and I’m sure many of them feel a bit restricted and a bit frustrated about it, they can only really just fill in the missing names of the people that they’re doing the wedding for. They have their legal words to say, of course, because they provide a legal marriage. But, they’re usually restricted to quite a brief ceremony and words that have to be said, and with very little room for manoeuvre in terms of personalising the ceremony. Obviously as celebrants, we don’t provide a legally binding ceremony. The registration of the marriage needs to be done at another time and that’s a whole different thing to get into. That can all be done very simply and actually quite cheaply. So, people then can have a celebrant lead ceremony if they want; something so much more personal than that kind of ceremony that the registrar can offer.
Tony: Because you don’t have any restrictions about that sort of the wording so much, do you? You’re much more able to create something special for that couple.
Jane: Absolutely. The old cliché, your ceremony, your way, is still so true with the celebrant option. Not only the words that are shared during the ceremony, the music that’s chosen, but also symbolic elements, if people want to include those, involving members of the family, close friends and really going to town making it truly reflect the couple that the wedding is for. Of course, you aren’t restricted to a licensed venue. With a celebrant, you can have your ceremony anywhere. That could actually be in a public place, like on a beach or in a wood. Many people choose to have their ceremonies in unlicensed venues because that keeps the price down. But, they’re often quite unusual, quirky places. Again, that makes it very personal and meaningful. Perhaps it’s somewhere that’s very special to the couple. So yeah, the options are pretty much endless with the celebrant.
Tony: So you’ve got me thinking now. What is the quirkiest venue you’ve done a wedding at?
Jane: Oh gosh. I don’t know about quirky. I’ve been to some beautiful venues. I don’t think there’s been anything particularly quirky. I have taken a funeral in a bowling club before.
Tony: Wow. Okay.
Jane: The lady that died was a keen bowler. It just felt fitting that that’s where her farewell should be. But with weddings, nothing majorly quirky. Lots of outdoor weddings; weddings in private back gardens, beautiful homes, stately houses, hotels, barns. Yeah, nothing really quirky, but just beautiful, some beautiful, beautiful places that I wouldn’t have had the chance to visit had I not been doing the work that I’m doing currently.
Tony: So when you meet prospective client, whether that be a couple for a wedding or someone about a funeral, I imagine that quite often they’ll come to you and they expect that there’s certain things that they have to do.
Tony: Therefore, they’re probably quite surprised when you let them know that’s not the case.
Jane: Yeah, absolutely. It never ceases to amaze me how much explanation I do need to give to people. I’ve come to realise that I must never assume that people know how ceremonies work, particularly with funerals. A lot of clients come to me thinking that there are certain things that we have to do legally. Obviously with a funeral, there are no legal requirements at all.
So therefore, it’s a lot of hand holding. It’s a lot of advice giving and guiding and information sharing with the people that I’m involved with. Not only with funerals, but with weddings and baby namings. I think people do get that that can be so much more flexible anyway, because they’re choosing something that’s maybe seen to be quite alternative to a christening. But with weddings and funerals, yes, people do expect that there are certain things that they have to do. One of the first things that I always say, and particularly with funeral families, is there is no right or wrong here. This is about what’s comfortable for you as a family and what you feel would be right for the person who has died. They often look at me at that point a bit shocked. ‘Oh, you’re not going to tell us that we have to do X, Y and Z?’ Even how you walk into a chapel, how we begin the funeral, that sort of entry arrangements, that sort of thing, people don’t realise that they actually have a choice over those things, like whether we close the curtain in the crematorium, that kind of thing. So yeah, there’s a lot of information to give to people during that very first meeting.
Tony: I think, also, a lot of people don’t realise that a funeral can actually be fun in many ways.
Jane: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Tony: It can be a celebration of the person’s life. An example was last year, my mom passed away and we had a service led by a celebrant, a guy called Peter Wiley. It was just a fantastic ceremony because my mom was not religious in any way whatsoever. She would have been horror struck if there had been any religious elements in the ceremony. Peter understood exactly what it is we wanted. She would very much have wanted something that was a celebration rather than lots of mourning and people being sad, and that’s exactly what he delivered. Everyone after the ceremony remarked ‘wow, that was such a different funeral than I’ve ever been to before’.
Jane: That’s a really good thing. Yeah, yeah, I’m really pleased to hear that. Celebrations of life are what we offer as celebrants. That’s what our job title is. If you like celebratory people that celebrate things, celebrate occasions, celebrate people’s lives, celebrate people’s relationships. It’s actually only maybe a handful of times that I’ve taken funerals, I think by now, I’ve taken something like 300 funerals 300 and odd funerals, I think literally, I can count on one hand, how many families have not wanted it to be called a celebration of life, for whatever reason. Sometimes it doesn’t feel right to celebrate a life in the same way that you might do with others. But 9 times out of 10 or even more, people do want the lives of their loved ones celebrated. They want their achievements talked about, they want positive areas of their life shared and remembered with joy and fondness. That is what we can offer families. Again, I think people are surprised at how uplifted they can feel, after a good funeral. There is such thing as a good funeral, yeah.
Tony: Absolutely. Obviously, the title of this show is Exceeding Expectations. So therefore, I imagine there’s been a number of times when the people, whether it be, again, for a funeral or a wedding, they’ve had certain expectations of how they think it’s going to be and you’ve probably quite surpassed or given them all sorts of ideas to make it very different from what they thought that it might be.
Jane: Yeah, I definitely try to do that. It’s getting to know the people that you’re providing the ceremony for, fairly well, as well as you can in the time that you’re given before the ceremony and the opportunities that you have to meet face to face, but getting a really good feel for what’s going to suit them. What’s going to be right and feel comfortable, getting the humour right, and that that kind of thing is, that can be very tricky in a funeral. Because as you say, a funeral can be a celebration, and to a certain extent, there’s joy in some of those very precious memories, and that can be shared during that ceremony.
But in order to get that spot on, you’ve really got to get to know your family or your couple. You’ve got to liaise with them. I always like to share in advance what it is that I’m going to say or what I propose to say. So, there are no shocks, no nasty surprises, particularly if a family does want some humour or a few light moments dotted throughout the ceremony that you’ve actually got it right for them. They’re going to feel comfortable with your delivery and what you’re going to say. So yeah, exceeding expectations is so important, or at least being really clear about the expectations along the way, so that everybody’s completely comfortable with what’s going to be done on the day and said, “Of course.
Tony: Before we started recording, I was asking you about how you got into this. So, you mentioned before you or was it a school teacher or a school headmaster? I forget what you said.
Jane: Yeah. So I’ve been in teaching for over 20 years, so a teacher, initially, and then I became a head teacher, a primary head teacher, before I left to start up my own consultancy business, helping in schools and helping other head teachers. So yeah, my background is in teaching and education. So, this is quite a different role for me, but there are lots of transferable skills, of course.
Tony: So, what would some of those be?
Jane: I think public speaking, standing up in front of a room full of people and not feeling too nervous about that. Also, dealing with challenging situations, dealing with people who are grieving, and who are very upset and who are going through a really tough time. You’re often faced with those sorts of situations in school, whether it’s with a member of staff or a child or the parents of a child, and maybe a family going through a breakup or divorce, a bereavement. There have been lots of those sort of situations that I’ve had to deal with over the years. So, that helps having had a bit of background there, keeping calm and comforting people and making sure that people feel listened to etc. I think also writing stories, because ultimately, that’s what we do. In teaching, and as a head teacher, you’re writing, you don’t realise it, I think, looking back, you write a lot of stories, you write reports, you reflect on what’s happened throughout the day and you give feedback to people. You’re always writing stories in one form or another.
Jane: Obviously, creating scripts is often about the story of the life of the person or the journey of the couple or in naming ceremonies, you might be writing the story of the family and talking about siblings and so on. So, yeah, lots of things that at the time, you don’t realise that they would perhaps transfer into other roles. But certainly for me, they suit the role of a celebrant and it’s really helped me, actually looking back, doing the job that I did. Certainly, I’m really glad that I did it, because it’s stood me in good stead to move forward into this role, even though it wasn’t planned.
Tony: So how did that come about? How did you make that change from working in schools to being a celebrant?
Jane: Well, as I said to you before we started the interview, when we were just chatting earlier, it happened by mistake. It wasn’t anything that I really had planned, not a long way in advance anyway. But, following the death of my father in law, and he died fairly young and fairly quickly after diagnosis with a serious illness. It was a really tough time for my husband and myself and family and his mom and brother, etc. But, we had a humanist funeral with a humanist celebrant for him. I was really quite blown away by how it made such a difficult situation actually better. Not necessarily because the person said or did anything that any celebrant wouldn’t have done or said, just because they were a humanist celebrant. I think it’s just about getting the match right between the person and the family.
In this case, it really was the perfect match. The lady that took the funeral was incredible, and she really did take the time to listen and make it a true celebration of his life and to give us all that comfort and a bit of a lift afterwards was a very precious thing. So, I really reflected upon that afterwards, not then thinking ‘oh well, I want to do this’ because I was still in education at the time and had no plans to do anything other than be in education, even though I was thinking, I might be moving on from headship around that time. So yeah, she without me really realising it at the time, she really did motivate me to consider training to take funerals and nothing else. I wasn’t thinking I’m going to become a celebrant, and I’m going to take weddings and baby namings and the whole lot. It was just about funerals.
It happened that I got into education consultancy work after I left my last headship and saw a vacancy with the Humanists UK. I knew that they were wanting to train people in my area.They were called the British Humanist Association at the time. I decided to train with them just for funerals, not thinking that I would want to take very many funerals each year, still thinking that I would be in education and doing my consultancy work. To cut a very long story short, it just snowballed and I just became so busy and I had so many requests to take funerals. Then I was persuaded to train to do weddings, baby namings and I now am a full time celebrant.
I’m a humanist celebrant, so I take non-religious ceremonies. But then, there are lots of celebrants that aren’t humanist celebrants that will also take non-religious ceremonies and some celebrants that will take ceremonies with religion in it. So, it’s about matching the celebrant to the family or the couple. Although I’m a humanist celebrant and I take non-religious ceremonies, I don’t always call them humanist ceremonies. They are sometimes just ceremonies or celebrations of life, or wedding ceremonies or celebrant ceremonies. But ultimately, they don’t have religion in them and I’ve been so fortunate to have been successful. Now, I’m working as a full time celebrant. I don’t have time for my education work now. I’ve sort of bit the bullet about 18 months, two years ago, to become a full time celebrant. So far, it’s working out really well.
Tony: Well, and again, before we start the recording, you were telling me how much you love what you do.
Jane: I do. Yeah, I absolutely love what I do. To wake up in the morning, and just look forward to getting on with the jobs that I’ve got to do that day is a wonderful feeling, to say that I thoroughly enjoy my job every day. I enjoy the variety, never knowing what I’m going to do from one week to the next particularly with funerals, never knowing the inquiries that are going to be coming my way from wedding couples or families that want baby namings. It’s just fantastic meeting the people that I meet along the way. It is a real joy and a privilege, I guess, because I’m just very interested in people. If you weren’t, you couldn’t do this job. That’s for sure.
But yeah, I’m very fortunate to have found some work that I absolutely adore. I did enjoy teaching, but it’s this is different. I am much more in control of my own diary and my workload. It’s scary, but it’s liberating. It’s really refreshing. That’s very different from what I’ve been used to in education. You are quite institutionalised in education to be kind of trapped in the school environment from a certain time in the morning until a certain time in the evening, and the accountability is vast. Yes, there’s accountability in this role of a celebrant, a huge amount of accountability, because you have to get it right for families and couples. There is no second chance. You have to really make sure that things are exactly as they need to be on the day. But yeah, for me, it’s an absolute joy and a privilege, and an honour and very much a way of life, I suppose rather than a job. I’m very lucky.
Tony: Are you able to give us any sort of examples or stories of situations, whether it be weddings or funerals, where you’ve really been able to surpass what people were expecting, in some way?
Jane: Yeah. I think particularly with funerals, people are often surprised, at like, you were saying to me about your mother’s funeral. People are often surprised how, I’m not certain whether joyful is the right word, but how uplifted they feel afterwards.
Jane: Nobody expects to enjoy a funeral. So you wouldn’t use the word enjoy. I really enjoyed that funeral. But actually, when I do have that said to me, when I first started taking funerals, I thought it was a bit odd, because I was just going out of my way to make sure that I wasn’t making anything any worse. That was kind of my bottom line. I just need to make sure that I’m not making this awful situation any worse. I’m doing the best by the person that’s died and for the family. But, I’ve come to realise over time that people can enjoy a funeral. So, I suppose that’s exceeding people’s expectations. It’s giving them permission to feel like they can celebrate the life of the deceased, and that they can kind of move on afterwards. Not that you ever get over grief, you learn to live with it, you learn to live a different life, you never get over it. But, I think having the right kind of funeral and a good funeral really assists in the grieving and the farewell process.
So, I think those situations where families have so kindly got in touch with me afterwards and have said we’ve had so many compliments. People really enjoyed so and so’s funeral, or they said it was one of the best funerals they’ve ever been to, and that sort of thing. That was a bit of a shock or surprise to me in the beginning. But actually, that’s an incredible feeling that you’ve actually helped not only the family, but also the other people who attended the funeral. It doesn’t happen all the time, but I’m blown away by the amount of contact that I do have with families afterwards, that they actually take the time to send a card or an email to thank me. In the beginning, I thought this is so odd that people are thanking me. They’re in a terrible situation, they’ve just lost someone that’s so dear to them. They’ve got so much going on and they’re actually saying thank you. We did the best by that person who’s died. So that’s the exceeding expectations in terms of funerals. That’s what I always aim to do.
With weddings, I think the personalisation element of a celebrant lead wedding ceremony can cause people to feel, ‘Wow, that was memorable. That was so them. That’s going to stay with me. That wedding was incredible, because it told the story of those people so perfectly’. I’m often asked, ‘Do you know them? Are you a friend?’ Like you were saying to me earlier, we do take time to get to know the couples whose weddings we do. That’s so, so important. We’ve got the luxury of that time that a registrar wouldn’t have, perhaps a priest or a member of the clergy wouldn’t have.
So the personalisation of the wedding ceremony will cause people to feel afterwards ‘Wow, that was an incredible wedding ceremony. I learned so much about this couple that I thought I knew really well and it transpires that actually there are all these other things I didn’t know about them. If there’s laughter and that sort of feeling of celebration and joy, within a wedding ceremony, that emotion, that kind of uplift, that people are given permission to feel, can really make people feel like ‘that was the best wedding or a very, very memorable wedding that I’ll never forget. So, I think aiming to create that wedding that shouts from the rooftops about that couple and gets it so right about them, their relationship and their personalities, is what we’re always aiming to do. When it comes to a funeral, it’s about gauging things just right for the family, for the person who has died, celebrating their life in a very sensitive and a very fitting way and discovering along the way with that family how you need to do that.
So, there’s a lot of thinking, there’s a lot of coming away from a meeting, mulling things over before you actually start writing. That process that you need to go through as a celebrant, I think, makes or breaks the ceremony. If you get it right, it ensures that that ceremony is spot on, and has exceeded the expectations for the people involved.
Tony: A couple of things that you said there on both the wedding and the funerals … One thing that struck me is obviously, because for both the weddings, and the funerals, you’re having such an impact on giving them great memories of those two very different types of ceremonies. Something you said about the weddings kind of made me think because I before, my background was as a DJ. I played the music at hundreds and hundreds of wedding ceremonies, and I saw so many average registrants or people who just didn’t put any personalisation or customisation into the wedding at all, which is very different to what you just described. I think the difference it makes is, because then I would obviously therefore be with the couple for the rest of the day after the ceremony had finished. When I’ve been at a wedding where there’s been a celebrant who has really gone out of their way to make the ceremony perfect for that couple, to really fit it for that couple’s personality and how they want it to go, it then sets the rest of the day up.
Tony: The rest of the day becomes so much more fun. So, your role can be so integral to how the rest of the day progresses and how much more fun people have for the rest of the day.
Jane: You’re so right. From that point of view, it’s a huge responsibility because you’re setting the scene for the further celebrations that are going to take place.
Jane: Absolutely, you’re quite right. So the mood, particularly as you build to a crescendo, at the end of the ceremony, it really needs to lift, and people need to leave that ceremony on such a high. That feeling of celebration needs to be in the air, like you could cut it with a knife. It needs to be hanging there so that you’re giving everyone, all the guests and the couple permission to continue to let their hair down. Go and crack open the bubbles and get the party started.
So yeah, from the point of view of music, I always advise couples on their music, if they’re not sure. Some people come to our meetings with very clear ideas about what they want for their music. Ultimately, it’s always the couple’s decision. But, music can have such an impact on a ceremony and particularly that final piece, as you well know. If it’s something really uplifting and really upbeat and the volume is cranked up right at the end, and off they go, with confetti being thrown while that music is in the background, it can have such a wonderful, uplifting effect. So yeah, you must never go into a wedding ceremony, forgetting that you are the scene setter for the rest of the day. Ultimately, they’re very nervous. Most couples are very nervous at the very beginning of the ceremony. Your job as celebrant is not only to deliver everything in the right way, as you’ve agreed with the couple, but also to relax the couple as you go along. So that they then come to the end of their wedding ceremony, having thoroughly enjoyed every moment and gradually relaxing through it and then ready to celebrate afterwards. Yeah, yeah. I’m smiling as I say that, because it’s just the best feeling in the world. It’s such a wonderful moment. It really is. It’s a real privilege.
Tony: Something you said about 5-10 minutes ago, you were talking about when you first were doing a funerals and your expectations or your attitude was more or less, you just didn’t want to make things worse.
Tony: Then you said you realised that it was very different and your mind set changed. So, did your mindset also change about how you approached it and how you’d kind of went about the whole thing?
Jane: I think these things come with experience, don’t they? I guess I was lucky that I hadn’t had very much experience of funerals until I started taking them, until I started training actually. When I trained, I was so fortunate to have a wonderful mentor, who allowed me to shadow her. I think before I took my own very first funeral solo, I’d attended something like 30 funerals and a huge variety of funerals as well from very young people to very elderly people. I managed to attend a funeral of someone who had taken their own life, etc. So I had that to go on. But there’s nothing like getting in there and doing it yourself in order to really realise the scope that you have, and the influence that you have on the situation as a celebrant.
I think, I wasn’t able to take everything that I had learned from shadowing my mentor. I hadn’t been able to sort of immediately put that into practice. It was a process over a long period of time, where I was able to meet a family, find out about the person whose funeral I was doing, and then think ‘Ah, yes’. Now, I went to a funeral where what my mentor did, would really suit this situation, or what she said, would really suit the situation. So, it was a kind of very organic process moving from, originally, I’ve just got to make sure that I do the right thing by this family, and I don’t make anything any worse. I just take the funeral, do what they need to be done. To actually know we can truly celebrate this life, by doing, by saying these things, by doing these things, by using this kind of music. As you do it over time, you pick up things that work really well and really reflect the deceased in a way that really makes the ceremony very meaningful, and very sensitive and very fitting. So, I think you grow as you’re doing the services, as you’re doing the ceremonies, just with experience and with meeting different people and being faced with different situations. That’s a long winded way of answering your question.
Tony: Time has flown. It always does seem to in these episodes. It’s half an hour gone already. But, before we go, what are your views on exceeding expectations and over delivering and trying to give people a great experience? What are your thoughts on that?
Jane: It’s so essential, in this work, to exceed expectations, because you’re only as good as your last ceremony really. Being self employed, you’re very vulnerable to not having work, as you well know. So, from a practical point of view, in order to keep yourself busy, you need to be very good at what you do and word of mouth and recommendation is a very powerful in this business, particularly with weddings, but also with funerals to a certain extent. I think it’s not something that you can force, it has to kind of come naturally. I think to be a celebrant, and to be successful celebrant, you’ve got to be genuinely interested. You can’t fake that. You have to really like talking to people, finding out about their stories, their journeys and be a really active listener. I’ve been doing so much talking during this interview but this isn’t usually how I am. I’m usually the one asking the questions and then avidly writing notes and listening as people are talking to me.
So, I think exceeding expectations kind of comes quite naturally to me because I want to do the very best that I possibly can by the couples whose weddings I do and the families I meet. But, I don’t think you can be taught to do it, if you see what I mean. I think it just has to come from within. Also, you have to walk a mile in another man’s shoes. You have to put yourself in their position and think to yourself all of the time, ‘how would I feel going through this process?’ ‘What I’ve just been asked? How would I respond to that? So, I think then you’re genuinely invested in the people that you’re working with.
You want to walk away at the end of the ceremony feeling like you did the very best that you possibly could with everything that you were given and that you’ve made the most of the opportunities that were there on hand. So, I think yes, striving to exceed expectations isn’t something I’ve ever consciously made up my mind to do. I think it just kind of comes quite naturally because I want people to have a really good experience. I want to continue to do the role that I do, so therefore, I want to continue to have contact from people who want ceremonies. The only way of doing that, the only way of getting that contact and that interest and the work is by doing a great job that people are going to recommend me for or go on to my website and see the photos of me doing what I do and the testimonials that have come my way fortunately. They’re going to look and say, ‘Ah, yes. They obviously liked what she did for them. Let’s give her a go. Let’s get in touch. Let’s chat and then hopefully we move on from there.
Tony: Well and speaking of your website you just mentioned, how would people get in contact with you? What are your website details?
Jane: So I have a wedding website, which is janeblackmanweddings.com and that’s purely just about weddings. My humanist website which is about all of the ceremonies, which gives information about all of the ceremonies that I take funerals, memorials, baby namings, etc. and weddings is humanist.org.uk/janeblackman and my phone number is on those websites. I’m on Facebook as well, ‘Humanist Weddings-Jane Blackman Celebrant’, ‘Humanist Funerals-Jane Blackman Celebrant’ and ‘Humanist Namings-Jane Blackman Celebrant’. So, I’m on Instagram. I’m all over social media.
Tony: Well, I’ll get all the links for the various things you just mentioned and I’ll put all of those in the show notes. So anyone listening if you want to, if you’re looking for any of the contact information for Jane, just look in the show notes, and you’ll find all of that.
Jane: Wonderful. Thanks Tony.
Tony: So Jane, it has been a pleasure speaking to you. I very much hope to meet you one day.
Jane: That will be fantastic. Thank you so much for inviting me on. It’s been lovely meeting you. All the best. Thank you.
Tony: Thank you Jane. Bye.
Jane: Bye, bye.
Tony: Next week, on Episode 18, I interview Kirk Bowman. Kirk is the founder of The Art of Value Society. Are you familiar with something called value pricing? If that is a new phrase to you, or maybe you don’t have a complete understanding of it, I think next week will be a very educational episode. I discovered The Art of Value podcast a few months ago and I’ve listened to so many episodes since discovering it, probably almost 100 episodes. It’s an excellent show. I speak to Kirk about just how you can deliver a lot of value to your client and how that should be reflected in your pricing. So it’s going to be a very interesting episode. That’s next week with Kirk Bowman. If you liked this episode, why not share it with people you know who might find it useful? If you know maybe a hairdresser or plumber or someone who you think that some of the things you’ve heard in this or any of the other episodes might be useful to them. Yeah, please do spread awareness of the show. That would be really helpful. Leave a review. I’d love that as well. Maybe join our Facebook group where you can join in conversations about anything you’ve heard on any of the episodes. So, I hope you have a fantastic week and I look forward to same time again next Tuesday