Topics covered this week

  • “Good service gets people talking about you, great service gets people shouting about you
  • How Jimi Hendrix effected James business
  • Why we shouldn’t use “Satisfaction surveys”
  • How Exceeding Expectations can be like teaching a dog to sit
  • Why is working as a waiter in the UK is not seen as a career like it is in France
  • Why 10 year old girls love the shop Lush

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Good to Great – Ultimate Consultant
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Pitching and Presentation Skills
Networking Skills for Recruiters
Recruitment Sales Training
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Headhunting Skills and Practice

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“James brings a fresh and contemporary perspective to sales in a professional services context”.
Ed Turner, Managing Partner – Taylor Vinters LLP

Popular subjects areas I have spoken about and taught recently include:

“Training with James was very enlightening. He covered a wide range of topics that everyone could benefit from. His style of teaching was very relaxed and allowed for us all to engage with him. The team learnt a lot from the training session and were keen to start putting it into practice. I would not hesitate to recommend James to other companies.”
Neil Edwards, VP Finance – MoneyGram International
(All transcriptions are done using through a system of artificial intelligence and so on EVERY episode there are quite a few mistakes as AI is far from perfect when it comes to transcribing the human voice. However, it is a very time-consuming process to go through each transcript and correct all the errors. For quite a while I had the transcribed docs sitting on my hard drive in the belief that one day I would eventually get around to correcting all the errors and could then upload each transcript to the show notes for each episode. The reality is that isn’t gonna happen for quite a while as I simply do not have sufficient time to be able to do that. So please accept my apologies for the number of errors but I hope that these transcripts are in some way useful to you.)

Episode 29 – James Nathan – 09-04-2019.mp3

Tony Winyard [00:00:00] Exceeding expectations. Episode 29. Welcome to the podcast where we give you ideas and how you can give your customers better experiences. This week’s guest James Nathan a former accountant and who was in recruitment. He now trains lawyers amongst other professions and we we hear things such as why satisfaction why you should never use the word satisfaction surveys and aim for satisfaction is just mediocrity. He compares trying to aim for exceeding expectations in some ways it’s like teaching adults assists. We find out about someone who suffers Shangri la. Hotels are doing and Ritz Carlton and how you can really delight your clients and he mentions about good service gets people talking about you but great service gets people shouting about you. We have a Facebook group for exceeding expectations so please do join in and start some conversations and it will be fantastic if you could leave a review for us on iTunes on stitcher on Spotify and that would really help get the show to more people so I hope you enjoy this week’s show.

Tony Winyard [00:01:23] So we’re here for another edition of exceeded expectations. And my guest this week is James NATHAN How are you James.

James Nathan [00:01:30] I’m great. Tony thanks very much. How are you doing.

Tony Winyard [00:01:33] I’m very well thanks a new euro over in just that was it Oxfordshire you were saying.

James Nathan [00:01:38] Yeah I I’m sort of in the middle of the country between reading an Oxford Yeah because you have such a strong artistic Oxfordshire accent. Yeah it’s all you play from time to time. I’ve been here a very long time but I I grew up in Western Australia so it’s I’m southern.

Tony Winyard [00:01:56] But Southern US people think what are the things that we were talking about before we started recorded and you were telling me about you know some of your background and the various you know as you’ve been an accounts and recruitment and so on. One of the things I found interesting was when you mentioned you had a company called the James Nathan experience and what was going through my mind as you started speaking from that is I wonder if he’s a Jimi Hendrix fan.

James Nathan [00:02:19] You know what I am just a little bit. That’s really good cause cause I know what it’s like when you when you build a business and you think what am I gonna call this and. And my business is about you know the main the main person is me. So I thought it has to be about me but it has to be true to my identity and I absolutely love Jimi Hendrix. So it was a very easy very quick thing but also that I went to see the same Australian guitarist Tommy Emmanuel this week in London and with a friend of mine who’s known you know the kind of business friends become more of a mate. And he said to me Oh I just realized why you companies call the James Nathan experience. I thought you’ve given me all sorts of stuff. How is that possible. The fact that straight away.

Tony Winyard [00:03:13] So you were talking about the those early days where you were an accountant and recruitment so. So how did that lead into what it is you’re doing now.

James Nathan [00:03:21] It’s almost a natural progression but not really. So I I worked as an accountant and a qualified here in the UK. I spent some time in corporate recovery and realised fairly swiftly that I didn’t want to be an accountant. I loved my clients I loved the people I worked with I didn’t love the partners I worked for and I didn’t want to be one of them. And when you’re trying to counter it you’d want to be a partner and you’re you’re ambitious it’s kind of a weird position to be in. So I looked at the world around me and looked at what I could either go into houses to or or leave the profession. So I went back to Australia and had a few beers with friends and came back and thought I’d go and see some recruitment consultants. They might have a good idea for me and I did. I saw lots of them. And after a while I started meeting people at these businesses who said you should be a recruitment consultant or what do you think of what we do. And when the fifth one said that to me I thought well maybe maybe there’s something in this. So I I interviewed I got a few offers. I ended up joining a what is now a gigantic business go Michael Page group. Back then 96 97. I knew everybody in the business. So it’s it’s changed a bit since then but he has a kind of funny finding rode through and I spent nearly 12 years with them. I ended up moving to the south I was in Leeds originally opening offices and running offices about the place and running around the country enjoying myself but wishing that you know in the back of my mind that I really wanted my own thing. So when the time was right I left and set up my own legal search business which was in Reading originally and then brought in a business partner who who opened up in in Bristol and then funny kind of thing happened where I was I was helping lawyers join firms and I’d go to meet a partnership and they’d say we need a really great person but they’ve got to be a rain maker and they’ve got to have what lawyers call a following which is a load of clients to bring with them and I’d say that’s okay but I’ve got this really great person and she’s not quite there yet. Could you Could you look at them. She’s gonna be a star but hasn’t quite got to the level you’re looking at Yep. Yeah we’ll take them on. And I’d say Fine how are you going to train them. And they’d say Well you know I will put up with Dave because he’s good and she’ll learn by osmosis. And Tony you and I both know that doesn’t work. And so I started talking to him about mentoring and training schemes and started training lawyers in sales which was fun because lawyers aren’t salespeople they don’t wish to be but they need to grow businesses. So I set up the James Nathan experience as a as a sideline really as something fun to do for a couple of days a month. But eventually it became bigger than that and it became all my focus and I was loving doing it. And so I sold my part of the business to my business partner which was a nice quick and easy thing to do. And and it is later I’m still working with professional people as well as recruitment people now as well and helping them grow their businesses and helping them get more from their existing businesses. A big big part of that is the bit that I kind of get most excited about really which is service and excellence. And what makes one business more referral than another and how do you build relationships with your clients to the point where they not only love working with you but want to talk about you. And so that’s come full circle and so you just say it’s a what.

Tony Winyard [00:07:10] What is it that makes it business more variable and in your opinion and how long you got.

James Nathan [00:07:16] Well to be honest there’s the key things are really simple so it’s working with the right clients.

James Nathan [00:07:23] If you work with the right kind of people I think you do a better job. And so you really need to stand your audience and your target audience but also who you can serve best and then think if you think of the what you do is serving rather than just billing people or you know doing a job. People then you start to invest more of your own energy and thought into that client.

James Nathan [00:07:48] If you look at all if you have very long term view of business which is you know work with you today but I actually want to work with you forever. Then that feels a bit more. Obviously you’ve got to give exceptional value. You’ve got to be great at what you do and give great value. But almost more importantly now is that I think in the clicking You know our competition are a click away. In most industries what makes you one person come to you or not somebody else can be just the web page they are. And so you have extremely easy to work with and I think that’s something that people don’t recognize as readily as they should. That doesn’t mean you need to be at the beck and call of Klein’s 24 hours a day. But it does mean you have to be easy to be you know you have to be able to do things that fit for your client. You have to be able to help them in ways that really they really need to you know return phone calls type call a staff. Simple things.

James Nathan [00:08:53] But you know delighting people are doing a great job for them really is about a lot of very simple things done well.

Tony Winyard [00:09:01] And so do people come to you because they’ve heard about how you’re able to get them referrals or what’s the process usually?

James Nathan [00:09:08] The majority of my business comes by personal referral which is which is how it should be really for a guy who talks about that. Yeah. And so you know that that talk ability thing is very very important but I also you know I also ask for a referral. I work with you know I talk to my clients about the kind of businesses I’d like you know if they knew they could introduce me to all those kinds of things. And also being a you know not forgetting that the Internet is a big big shop window. I get a good number of inquiries that come through there. You know having a strong brand and using all the available you know social media certainly helps as well as a lot of blogging video blogging. Okay guys like you on podcasts and and you know public speaking as I can do at conferences and events and when you speak at events what is it you speak about. So my my speaking business if you call it that is all around service excellence. And I talk about being the only one in your market. So you know in a world where good service should be a given. It’s not what but it should be. We know great service gets people talking about you but outstanding service gets people shouting about you know being the best of what you do isn’t really wasn’t nearly enough to grow a business. Well to be way ahead of competition you need to be the you know the only one people talk about if someone says to you today Tony I need McCarthy XT and you give me a list of six people to go to. They’ll choose one of them but you won’t you’ll tell them the one that you think is the best one to go to. Similarly if you said to me I need some way to go for dinner I’ve got already you know there’s a special occasion coming up you know anywhere you go you will refer them to you know them well enough. One or two places that you think can be put. And so that’s kind of the gist I of my my keynote. You know a great service is kind of the starting point but then trying to learn from the businesses who are extraordinary you know the real leaders in the world of excellence in service excellence the big hotel chains people like Disney people like Harley-Davidson you know the kind of names that spring to mind if someone mentions the industry to you and when you’re doing a speaking engagements is it too normally a particular type of industry or is it quite varied. It’s reasonably varied. I do know the majority my staff is professional and business services because that’s where my. Where my main business offering is and recruitment businesses. But it’s broadened significantly recently because I think the message works across many many sectors. And it’s interesting to talk to the kind of smaller chains restaurant chains hotels you know. Opticians that you know anywhere that that a natural fact it’s a service business with a product offering behind so yeah it’s not as it’s not as they put in that wise as some but certainly the nations around the suffering of the business and as well as speaking as a you know as a public speaker.

Tony Winyard [00:12:37] You. So you mentioned about training and are you doing workshops as well.

James Nathan [00:12:40] Or do a mix of workshops and and coaching and mentoring and depending really on what the business needs. But the reality is that workshops are a great way to learn and they can be a very fun thing for your staff to do. Are absolutely point unless people go away and do something differently. And set that knowledge in the future. And so it’s a lot of particularly where I’m doing skills based stuff. So for instance networking training it’s really important that we go out or they go out and use that skill straightaway.

James Nathan [00:13:23] It’s about welcoming clients and running business meetings. That that happens instantly so that they really really embed the learning and the mentoring and coaching kind of fits over the top and reinforces it and embeds it for them because you know if you go to. If I come into a business today and do an introduction to sales calls. Well unless they unless they have a way of embedding it over and over again in the future which usually doesn’t involve me going back and doing it for them then the staff then the management they really need to to be able to do that.

James Nathan [00:13:59] And I do quite a bit of work in management because you’d expect that they they need to learn how to to help their staff better it’s from some of the guests I’ve had in the past who have done something of a similar nature.

Tony Winyard [00:14:14] One of the recurring themes that I found that I’d be interested in your take on this is a lot of the companies that approached people with the kind of help companies say to give a better customer experience. It often seems to be the companies that make that approach already have the mindset of they realize the importance of delivering a great experience to their customers and yet the companies who don’t have that mindset and the ones who are in most need of the training aren’t the ones that seem to reach out and ask for such training. What’s your experience?

James Nathan [00:14:47] It’s a shame isn’t it. If they did you go to Disney you think come on. Most businesses think they know what they need. So they might say you know we really want to improve the service to our customer base or we’d like to get a higher level of referrals or when we’re not keeping our customers as long as we used to. And why is that. But actually it’s it’s looking beneath the surface of the reasons behind those things and trying to put together a suitable program to help them it might be that actually they don’t. They think they’ve got a client a problem with client retention but they don’t.

James Nathan [00:15:29] They have a problem with something else in the in the in the process or that you know a lot of the ideas around about inquiry to engagement. So you know for when someone comes to you in the first place to actually working with you as a client capturing them as a client you know there’s lots of bits and pieces that fall into why they do or don’t be. I think it’s a common problem that you know especially a business like mine.

James Nathan [00:15:55] There’s only me and and so there’s only so much time you can spend you know hunting for work when you’re busy anyway. You need to do a lot of undercurrent of that but you know some of those businesses. You’re right. I’d love it if I could just go into the you know there’s a there’s a post office in our village if I could convince them to spend some time it may be amazing. You know you get less service if you tried and what is it.

James Nathan [00:16:24] What are the things that they do in one day using Oh it starts just a day at the training of their staff. There’s just no interest whatsoever. You know you walk into the place they stare at you. You know you leave. There’s no thank you. It’s it’s a there’s a common problem in a lot of businesses where they forget that actually without their client base they wouldn’t exist. You know I’ve heard I’ve been I’ve sat in law firms and I’ve sat in accounting firms where I’ve spent some time with them to sort of see what’s going on. And I’ve heard people say things like oh God this job would be great if it wasn’t for the clients. Think yourself really. It wasn’t for the clients. That’s an interesting way to think about it. But I just don’t. If you if you hire somebody just because you need someone in your business. So let’s take the example let’s go with the post office was a kind of shock I’ve seen it. If you just hire anybody and you pay as little as possible and you give them as little input as possible then you don’t really deserve to have you know their dedication their loyalty or their commitment to your business either. Staff treat clients and customers the way we treat them. I’ve got a fantastic example actually of a there’s another place in the village a little shop a little a cafe and a girl they’re not working in anymore but her name’s Lauren and Lauren was the most miserable girl I’ve ever seen you know she was she was a school leavers she was working as a student just working at a cafe which is a great way to earn some money. And she was so unimpressed with her. I always thought to myself Why the hell are you working here. You know you obviously don’t like it. But then something changed ownership of the place changed. So whoever the guy was who owned it left and sold it. And this new woman Vivian bought it and almost instantly Lauren became this smiling happy really friendly girl. And the difference was Vivian you know the way she treated her the way she looked after her she gave her input and training and and that allowed her to be the person that she was the nice friendly happy kid. But with the with the you know the background to do that and so many businesses forget that you know happy happy staff make for a very happy place.

James Nathan [00:18:53] And if you treat people like dirt they will you know in fact feel that they are and then why should they be any different really.

Tony Winyard [00:19:02] That post-office shop example they would turn round to you and say “Oh but our profit margin is so small we don’t have the budget to do training. So what would you say to that?

James Nathan [00:19:12] You won’t be in business long.

James Nathan [00:19:15] I know there’s there’s some costs in business which are just absolutely necessary but some things aren’t a cost you know spending time with with your staff helping them learn their jobs properly helping them understand. This is really important. Knowing what your vision for the business is and what sort of place it is you know what how do you want it to be when you when you start in business you have a view of what sort of of company or business you want to run. And it needs to be that and that year there is very there’s no cost in there’s no cost in helping your staff and spending time with them. There’s no cost in making sure that you give them a proper induction. I’ve just I’ve just finished reading a really a really fantastic book Ash is a new new book out called excellence wins is written by horse Horst Schulze who was the co-founder of the Ritz Carlton Group and he talks a lot about how he how you spend time with staff and as a chief executive wouldn’t expect him to do the staff induction himself but he did four days of that was you know understanding every part of the business so that you really bought into what it was all about and if so if if someone says they don’t have the money to spend on service. Well I think that I don’t think it’s all about spending money.

Tony Winyard [00:20:53] And so the sort of companies you’re helping. Do you find it’s often this is it’s kind of reminding them of lots of the small things. Or is it more than just that.

James Nathan [00:21:05] I don’t think I ever teach people anything they don’t know what I do is I help people see the thing they don’t do anything with you know we all know that if I walk into a church if if if you walk into my shop and I greet you with a Hi how are you today in a nice warm welcome. We all know that’s a nice thing to do and that’s how we’d like to be treated ourselves. But but lots of businesses don’t. I think some of the things that I did I talk with owners about about understanding vision and about understanding core values. They perhaps haven’t even stopped to think about. They’re so busy being in business and really haven’t delved into into what makes the thing tick. And if you do do that then you can and you can relay that and sell that to your staff. Then you’re all all driving in the same direction. That’s really really important isn’t it.

Tony Winyard [00:22:05] And so a few situations where you’ve been working with someone where maybe up until the point where you’ve been working with them they’ve been simply meeting expectations and then you’ve helped them to kind of delight clients and they’ve just got much better results.

James Nathan [00:22:19] Absolutely. On lots of occasions I mean one. One example I was thinking of when you started to talk is a is a a firm over in Berkshire where they’ve got a really good client base. They’ve got you know everything’s pretty decent but there’s nothing special about it. And through a number of conversations we started talking about you know what really differentiates and what makes them the place that people come to me so I drill down into that. And there was lots and lots of little things that changed not only to make it a more welcoming environment. It was a law firm. You know when people go to a law firm they go because they’ve got a problem but for the staff the staff live and breathe and work there and you know law is just a problem solving exercise for them. And I think they’ve gotten to actually these people were coming in because they were worried or because they were upset or because they needed something particular or they had it or they or they had been or they were worried about the future. So we put in place a lot of little things just like simple stuff changing the way that they were greeted and taken to a room changing the way that you know tea and coffees and things were offered to them changing how people with children were looked after having yet colouring books and brand new pencils for the kids stuff stuff that is is very small but makes a big big difference and the result of that was that through through looking at sort of their profit margins all increased which is what you’d always want but when they did kind of survey of people and we did it kind of before and after survey was the survey levels were much much higher.

James Nathan [00:24:09] Now I have a problem around satisfaction surveys because well actually I’ve got a problem with the word satisfaction. I think that it’s it’s absolutely you know if you aim for satisfaction you’re aiming for mediocrity. And actually it’s not about satisfaction at all it’s about delight you know because I mean when was the last time Tony you went out for dinner and then rushed outside to find your mum to tell her how satisfied you were with the meal.

James Nathan [00:24:40] Yes we do we we go out we think wow that was amazing we tell people about it. Shanghai Hotels don’t have a satisfaction survey. They have a delight survey and they’re not the slightest bit interested in you being satisfied in any way they want you to walk out of there. Absolutely delighted. And that’s a really good way of thinking about it. And so when we did after survey as we look at you know how how pleased were you with aspects of what happened. Did we did. Did you get what you wanted. Was it done in a way that was great or the simple questions but then following up with saying actually you know what would you refer us. And if not why not. And then when they say no or they weren’t sure anything less than that absolutely then you know those people were contacted and talked about. That’s a really good thing to do. You know asking for the facts from your client base is is I guess is a nerve racking thing isn’t it. To test your relationship. But actually there’s nothing more important than finding out what you’re doing wrong women especially what you just said about it.

James Nathan [00:25:50] Most people have that standard satisfaction survey. But to ask for a Delight Survey, I think a lot of companies would be terrified to do that because of what it might reveal.

James Nathan [00:26:00] Absolutely. But then you know that the funny thing is you know people always seek feedback and then a lot of people don’t like it when they hear it. My job is to go and you know and pat people on the back and say well don’t you doing a great job don’t you don’t need me. My job’s to go say okay you’re doing a great job how do we make it fantastic. Where can we polish. Because none of the businesses I work with the bad businesses ever. They’re all good. But they want to be better businesses. And so it’s looking for just the opportunities. But you know with with someone coming into your business or you know or meeting someone in a shop or whatever it is there’s so many little opportunities to delight them. There’s so many of them. It’s easy to do something really nice for them that just makes their day. And those people are you need to be on the lookout for that need to be looking for the opportunities. If you’re not looking for opportunities to delight people then you won’t. I mean I reached in conversation with the client recently where we’re talking about managing new staff. And you know we were talking about looking for opportunities to praise them looking for things to praise you’ll find them. If you look for opportunities to delight you will find them too. You just have to be on the lookout for how can I make this person’s day.

Tony Winyard [00:27:24] So often it’s a case of there’s a mindset change that’s needed is that would you say it’s something not that easy. Well.

James Nathan [00:27:34] In a word yes it is but it’s it’s mindset. Change takes time. Cultural change takes lots of time which is why I keep harping back to to your hiring process and your induction and training process in businesses because if you understand the values of your business then you should by default be hiring complementary people. If you had complementary people then you will have mindsets in the right direction. If you know for people who are already in the business nobody goes to work to have a bad time do that. No one gets up and goes I’m off to work I’m going to have a really crappy day today I’m not going to work because they want to be happy everybody wants to be happy. So if we give them an environment where they’re allowed to be and we give them the autonomy to be the best they can be they will do that. Doesn’t serve Ritz Carlton. One of the businesses I talk about all the time they have a quite a famous program where their staff are allowed to spend up to two thousand dollars to make somebody happy. Huge amount of money and it’s set at that level so they can do amazing things like you know this is a story of someone leaving a suitcase a briefcase in Los Angeles and one of their staff flying to Honolulu to deliver it. You know crazy stuff. Well actually what it’s designed to do is to say how do we make you know if we see someone coming through a door carrying boxes not only should I hold the door but actually I should be thinking I hold the door and take those boxes for them and get someone to help them and maybe they might like a drink as hot outside. It’s that contrast in day to day terms for the rest of us who aren’t in the Ritz Carlton chain and haven’t got that kind of thing. It’s saying to ourselves what what you know today is going to be a great day.

James Nathan [00:29:27] How do I make everybody I come in contact with enjoy themselves to.

Tony Winyard [00:29:33] So for someone who’s listening to this who’s maybe in a very small business maybe even a one man band and they in a situation say where they’re charging such a low price and then therefore having to work so much that they feel they’re not able to.

[00:29:50] They want each job for such a short amount of time that they’re only just about meeting expectations. What advice would you give to someone in that kind of situation.

James Nathan [00:29:58] I want to be flip and say do something else. But actually it’s. It depends on what and what that is. Low price stuff can be fantastic and you can make a big difference to people and make it very nice for them more just make them touch them somehow so that it becomes an experience rather than just a purchase. And there’s little tiny ways of doing that. I bought some reading glasses recently and I have dozens of other things all over the house because I’m old now and blind so I need to kind of make sure I don’t buy these things online are there any few quid each but I bought a new paint and I think I think they were 12 pound so in the scheme of things the glasses are pretty cheap and they arrived wrapped with a little boy. And it was just very nice. It didn’t mean you know it took a tiny bit of time from their side. And guess what I did on Twitter and everywhere else pictures of it and how year you know and they said we’re just trying to make something media is something you need seen better. You know if we sort about what we’re doing and the impact it has on the other other person we can make things right. A sandwich isn’t an expensive thing but a sandwich and buying a sandwich can be the highlight of your day. If it’s done right. And if you are very busy and selling low priced stuff How could you make that just a better experience for everybody rather than just pushing the thing. How do you make it. You can be great value but a fun is interesting is it different. And what could you do when you don’t have to gift wrap things. But you know a little handwritten note with something might be a nice touch. There’s lots of ways I could or put your price of lots of businesses that service businesses particularly. And one man bands in the service will often selling themselves way below their value. And then if imposter syndrome and a few other bits of.

Tony Winyard [00:32:00] It terrifies them doesn’t it, most businesses to put their prices up.

James Nathan [00:32:04] It does. But you know what. Every every year you’ll get a letter from British Gas or the water board or whoever else it is putting their prices up. And what do we do we just shrug and get on with it don’t we. You know and I think there’s the incremental increases are important as much as getting yes you know the value run in the first place. One of the problems I guess is that no one wants to tell you what they charge their clients. People will then give you an idea of the marketplace or ask your clients what they’re paying for the giant being charged and kind they’ll let you know that yeah. Does terrifies the pants off everybody. And we’ve all done and gone in to cheap. No absolutely known. I guess you have to define your level but also just trying it on almost one point saying A.J. You know what people will pay this and once they do once it’s not a problem anymore.

Tony Winyard [00:32:59] So what are your thoughts James on exceeding expectations. Trying to really give your customers a great experience.

James Nathan [00:33:06] It’s amazing the difference it makes to your business if you start the mindset sits around excellence rather than just just doing a good job. If you’re expect if you’re trying to exceed the expectations of your and I’m not talking about the old kind of you know under promise and over deliver stuff which I think is just manipulative is your expectation level the client is set at the right level. And then you go out of your way. Blow them out of the water. Everybody has a better experience. Everybody enjoys the process. Everybody does. And there is no chance that that person won’t talk about the great time the great experience they’ve had. They will and they always do. You know it’s it’s not what we do it’s how we work. We work with people we like and we enjoy spending time with exactly the same way we we socialize. You know we don’t go out to to socialize with people we don’t like and we don’t if we unless we absolutely have to. We don’t work with it. We don’t like.

Tony Winyard [00:34:08] And what you said before about the glasses is such a great example because once people maybe change the mindset and start trying to do some things that do delight customers and then as you said you know you tweeted about it but you put it on social media when so many people who aren’t getting mentions on social media once that starts to happen and then it’s a kind of momentum. Oh okay. Well if I do more of that kind of thing I’m going to get more of that and then I’m going to get better referrals and testimonials and so on.

James Nathan [00:34:38] Absolutely. It’s like teaching a dog to see. It’s a pretty rubbish analogy but you know every time it sits you give it a biscuit. Well guess what it’s it’s a lot. And human beings that we all work better with positive reinforcement don’t we. You know something happen as good and someone says that’s great. You go to pound the back. You enjoy that you like it. I think the glasses things really nice for lots of reasons. But actually the nicest reason of all is that it just makes you feel like you’re getting a present and we don’t get gift wrap presents much any more makes you feel a little bit like a kid on it on the birthday or Christmas morning. You know this this uninfected thing where the 90 you’ve forgotten about or you know or somebody sends you a present you’re not expecting it’s so lovely and it’s that feeling that it taps into even more so than the fact they just gift wrapped lots of businesses do it to try and make it special. But I’ve noticed in lots of odd ways. So you know the glasses I buy my contact lenses online they always come gift wrapped. I bought. That my favourite favourite one was I bought a thing called a hug from my motorbike and if you don’t ride motorbikes it’s basically a glorified mud guard that goes on the back. But I wanted a carbon fibre one and I found this is called Skid marks which is a terrible name for a business but a memorable time for business and time you couldn’t buy online from them I had to ring them up which was which was nice. You spoke to someone in you’re telling the model you wanted what it was and when this thing arrived a few days later it came in a massive box filled up with those little peanut things you had polystyrene things that my kids loved so much. And inside was my god with a little with a positive note and just an everyday post and I stuck to it saying James we’ve had a look at the forecast this weekend in oxygen and it looks like it could be really sunny. I hope this looks great on your bike and enjoy your riding. What a lovely little touch. And whole you know and just makes you grin a bit more about that business. And then we don’t. Well I must have mentioned skid marks. Almost everybody I’ve ever met since. In every context I can.

[00:36:53] It’s going out of your way to do something little to make someone’s day. So do you think a generally over say the last 5 10 15 years things have been improving and do you think it’s going to continue that way. How do you think how do you see things going in the next 5 10 years.

James Nathan [00:37:11] Is improving. I’m not sure if it is or not. Actually I don’t think it’s improving in total. I think it’s improving it’s in some sectors. But I think the overall trend is toward impersonal service. You know we something like Amazon we all use. It’s a fantastic way of getting stuff quickly and without having to actually speak to someone which you know for certain products you know if you want some paper or something it’s fine. But personal service is personalized service should I say something that we really read people really enjoy. And you know in certain sectors are getting better and better and better at it. Give an example. My daughter loves bath bombs and then she’s 10. So it’s kind of you know very or still very early with her and she goes into lush the the cosmetics and soap shop. Well that place is amazing. They greet her. They sit her down they chatter about what they’ve done. They make the whole thing an absolute joy an experience for her. And she goes away and buys more stuff and then when she gets some money she says can we go to lush you know there’s certain businesses that are very good at it. But the overall trend I don’t thinks is at all. And it’s not. I hear lots of people saying oh well you know it’s Britain. If you go to America or if you go to Asia. I didn’t. That’s true. I think it’s you know I think there are certainly worlds where services is seen as something important. But in you know here in Britain you know a waiter’s job is not seen as a career where in France cities and so people don’t take the same care and the same put the same effort into it some of those things which perhaps they should.

Tony Winyard [00:39:07] James we’ve done time has flown. I want to be respectful of your time. So before we finish out there people want to find out more about you and get in such a view. Where should they go. What should they do.

James Nathan [00:39:16] Well that’d be great. And the best thing is James. Nathan com which is my Web site and all my contact details are on there. I’m the most easiest man to find in the world so everything’s great says James. James Nathan knock on James Nathan dot com website. James name is not with us. If you Google me though you’ll find the guy who won Master Chef a few years ago is also called James Nathan and he seems to have picked up the first page br Master Chef accolades but suffice to say is that typically people would be would they reach out for you if they if they interested in attending a workshop or is that kind of thing what they’d be like. So I only work in-house for businesses. I don’t work. I don’t do workshops where individual people can come. I do an individual training in coaching. But if you were interested if you know the best thing to do is to to have a chat about what it is you’re looking to achieve or what you want what what you think you need to do and then we can chat about what’s the right process if it’s me it’s me if it’s not you know I can refer you to someone who can.

Tony Winyard [00:40:22] Well James it’s been a pleasure speaking of you and thank you for your time.

James Nathan [00:40:25] Thank you so much Tony it’s been great.

Tony Winyard [00:40:30] Episode 13 next week is with Dr. Brandon Siegel and we discuss topics along the lines of Wellness Healthcare functional medicine and how people in those areas can exceed their customers expectations and why sometimes expectations are so low. In some of these situations I hope you’ve enjoyed this week’s show. Please do leave a review for us on iTunes Stitcher. You can also find a podcast on Spotify and maybe think about joining the Facebook group and get some conversations going in there. Have a great week. I’ll see you next week.