EE069 – Mark Green

Tony Winyard – Health, Breathing, Sleeping, Mindset & Movement Coach

“Self-awareness is fundamental to being coachable” In this episode, we speak with Mark Green who coaches CEOs and executive teams worldwide.

His passion is to liberate human potential and addresses, coaches and advises business leaders across a wide range of industries on topics including leadership, mindset, behaviour change, human performance, accountability.
Mark is a Core Advisor to Gravitas Impact Premium Coaches, a mentor to coaches worldwide, and an active contributor to programs and content for their global ecosystem and works with companies to help them escape the “Growth Trap” so they can run and grow the business faster and more profitably, while expending less effort and less time.
Topics discussed in this episode:
    • Structuring engagements
    • Having a guarantee and open door policy
    • How he helped a client’s employee’s wife learn more about how to get into coaching
    • The use of transparency in client communications – General Contractor, Restaurant, Technology Services
    • An incredible experience with “Uncruise”, a small ship eco/adventure cruise line
    • The true cost of tolerating the wrong person on your team
    • How to hire the right coach
A book recommended by Mark:
Social Media:
CoachMarkGreen on LinkedIn

Exceeding Expectations links:

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(Transcriptions are done using through a system of artificial intelligence; so every episode contains a few mistakes as AI is not yet perfect for transcribing the human voice. However, it is a very time-consuming process to go through each transcript and correct all the errors. So please accept my apologies for the number of errors, but I hope that these transcripts are useful to you.)

Tony Winyard 0:00
Exceeding expectations Episode 69. Have you ever thought about getting a coach? Or would you know how to go about finding the right coach? And are you coachable? All those topics and many more are discussed in this week’s episode with Mark Green, who coaches, CEOs and executives all around the world. Welcome to the podcast where we aim to give you ideas of how you can give your customers a fantastic experience one, which was went far beyond what they expected and results in you getting better referrals and testimonials, please do leave a review for us on iTunes may want to subscribe to the podcast and it would be great if you could share this episode with someone who you feel could get some benefit anyone you know who’s maybe thinking about coaching just wants to know more about that sort of thing. It would be great if you could share that with them. And now for this week’s episode exceeding expectation My guest today is Mark Green. And how are you, Mark?

Mark Green 1:03
Hey, Tony, I’m great today. Thank you. And you’re in a big apple. I am I am slightly outside of I’m on the skin of the Big Apple in New Jersey, just just within the New York metropolitan area. Yes.

Tony Winyard 1:16
And is that is that where you’re from?

Mark Green 1:18
Yeah, I grew up just north of New York City and a little town called Chappaqua, New York about 55 minutes to the north of Manhattan.

Tony Winyard 1:27
And so well, I know you’re a coach. Mark, do you want to tell us what it is that you do?

Mark Green 1:31
Yeah, I’m a leadership and business growth coach. I work with CEOs and their executive teams running high growth mid market firms to help them essentially get out of their own way and put the things in place so that they can continue to scale those businesses. And to give you an idea of scope. Mike, my clients are cut across industry. So I’m industry agnostic. And right now my portfolio runs from about 20 million US turnover on the low end to 400 million turnover on the high end.

Tony Winyard 2:04
And how did this come about? How did you get into coaching?

Mark Green 2:08
So I launched my own business back in 2003, initially as a leadership development training company, and that was my first foray into wanting to do my own thing. And it evolved really on about a 36 month cycle over over the years. And I reached a point in in that business where my I wasn’t, I was working too hard and not earning enough and the only way for me to earn more was to actually work harder. And that didn’t make sense to me. And so I, I basically stepped out and said, right, how can I become credible in the middle market? And what’s the right set of tools that I need to make that happen? Long story short, I affiliated with a global coaching organisation, got some new tools and and was able to go out and launch my practice. in its current form and about 2009. And from from then it’s been off to the races. And now I’m actually one of the leaders in in this global coaching organisation. I train and mentor coaches worldwide. I maintain a very stable client portfolio. And just last year, published my first book, actually, I should say, last year, at the end of 2018, published my first book, and I have a second book on the way that’s dropping in January of 2020. And I’m moving in a direction of more thought leadership and, and speaking, which is kind of my next chapter.

Tony Winyard 3:37
Well, there’s lots to explore there. So let’s start off with what was it that drew you to coaching in the first place? Why, how did you get into it?

Mark Green 3:44
So it’s interesting, it wasn’t a straight line, as I think usually is the case. But as I look back in hindsight, if you turn the clock all the way back, let’s say to mark in high school, Mark was the guy who everybody always talk too, and I was the guy who didn’t only belong to one or two or three clicks in high school groups, but I cut across all of the groups. And I always found it interesting to listen to people and to engage with people. And at the time, of course, I thought nothing of it and went away to university and started working and you know, was on a management track and all that kind of thing. And, you know, it really wasn’t until I decided, you know, what, I’ve had enough working for other people let me step back and do my own thing, that the concept of leadership development came to me but even that wasn’t really coaching. In its first iteration, it was more training firm. So you know, that format, and and that business then evolved into being able to be delivered in a coaching format. And interestingly, the coaching I do today is one too many, not one on one, primarily So I’m in the I’m in the board room with the CEO and the executive team and and that’s the team that I coach as a part of how I work my business today.

Tony Winyard 5:14
You’ve been coaching a long time what would you say are the general attributes that are required to be a good coach.

Mark Green 5:25
There are and and most people like me who I who I know have to learn it through the school of hard knocks. Right and and a lot of it and this will come as no surprises you just you have to get out of your own head. You know, and that’s a that’s a big issue because you can’t be other focused. You can listen and really hear what people are saying or read between the lines and you absolutely cannot say the things that might Be said that you know people do not want to hear but they have to hear you cannot do any of those three things if you are in your own head and I was victim to this for years and it’s fascinating because even after 2009 I was I still had a some fear around being able to say the right thing feeling somewhat inferior to the to the CEOs and the clients who I was working with at the time. You know, there’s all kinds of stuff that goes on in our heads and it wasn’t until I figured that out and it was about 2011 I think when when the when it really came together for me that that was literally the the hockey stick uptick in in my in my practice and and like a rocket ship literally at that point. And and that then sparked my interest in what is it that goes on in our minds that prevents us from doing what we know we should be doing and I started working with other colleague coaches on the same things because everybody had the same problem. And then I started seeing it in my clients as well in their businesses and in their leadership. And that’s the path that led me to write my first book activators. Because activators is about the three hidden growth killers that prevent us from enacting pretty much what we know we need to be doing. And we already know how to do it, but we’re just not doing it.

Tony Winyard 7:27
So let’s explore that what are those three things?

Mark Green 7:30
So the three hidden growth killers are our motivators, our habits and our beliefs. And we could, we could unpack each of those in about a day’s worth of content, just FYI. But the the idea is that we’re, we’re as animals, we’re motivated by fear or or love. Essentially, we either want more of something or want less of something and that operates below our conscious level and has a profound impact on how our brains work and how we make choices and how we take actions, our habit as well, their their habitual responses to things and not just habits of doing like brushing your teeth, or tying your shoes, but habits of thinking, which get into assumptions and presuppositions and all of those things that we don’t even recognise the recurring, like this idea of when you meet someone for the very first time, and you instantly have an impression of them. That that doesn’t come from them that comes from you’re making up a story in your brain based on a pattern of prior experience. And that’s actually a habit. Okay, now that may serve you or it may not serve you but knowing the difference is pretty important. Okay. And then the third is beliefs and we have a set of beliefs relative to our past, to our present and to our future. And, and again, at each Those, the research is pretty clear that there are our ways that those are our interactions with our beliefs can help us. And there are ways that they can also get in our way. And, and so I unpacked all this in the book and created a series of eight activators. And a series of tools to help business leaders essentially be able to bypass these things without necessarily needing to get into all the science behind it.

Tony Winyard 9:30
And since you had those kind of realisations. How has it changed for the results you get for your clients from before and after?

Mark Green 9:41
Oh It’s been dramatic. I have a gift of, of intuition. I just feel I’m able to see patterns and things and I’m able to put pieces disparate pieces together to come to a conclusion and I had to say Set of fears in the early days that prevented me from articulating what was really occurring to me at any moment in time with a client. And, and it was like, you know, naming the elephant in the room or saying, hey, but if we put this this and this together, don’t we get that? And isn’t that what we should be talking about? And it was when I was able to start doing that and start going toe to toe with business leaders, I was coaching to help them see the things that I knew they needed to see but that they didn’t want to admit but but that was really going to change their game. That was the game changer. That was the game changer. And you know, for me to realise that it was less about wanting to be liked and and a popularity contest, and more about being being respected. And it doesn’t mean you’re right all the time. I just had this conversation with a client yesterday. You know, I’m wrong plenty of the time. But I’ve right enough that it far outweighs the amount of times I’m wrong. And, and I’m good with that, because that’s what allows me to be most effective for my clients.

Tony Winyard 11:13
And when you started well, confronting is not the right word. But when you started to bring things up to clients who maybe weren’t so happy to hear those sort of things, how was the reaction?

Mark Green 11:25
So it’s interesting that the reactions were were actually quite favourable. It’s just one of those things where, you know, in your mind, you build it up, of course, like it’s going to be this awful thing. And then you have it and it’s like, oh, wow, that was actually like really pretty darn good. And what I’ve also done since then, is I’ve incorporated it into how I screen a prospective SEO client today. And so my practice is fairly stable. So I only turn over maybe one or two client slots per year. So it’s not like I’m doing this constantly. But when I started as CEO, as a prospective client, I am very, it’s kind of interesting because on the one hand, it’s my sales process. But But I’m very in their face, and confrontational with them not not in a not in a in a crummy, not in that kind of a way, but or a jerky way, but in, but in a caring way, but saying what needs to be said and calling them on the carpet or saying, you know, on the one hand, I hear you say this, but on the other hand, I hear you say that those two things can’t coexist. So which is it? And what I’ve discovered is that, in many cases, nobody has ever talked to these people this way. And the right ones will love it, because it’s missing for them. Like they’re surrounded by people who just nod their heads, you know, and, and, and those are my best, those are my best clients. So I’ve actually started using it to screen today and it makes for much more productive relationships.

Tony Winyard 12:59
Well, and that why they’re going to a coach in the first place? I would imagine.

Mark Green 13:03
You bet. Although people aren’t even clear on that, because there’s this element of, well, we need to fix the team. Right? But but the CEO is not saying I need to fix me, so that we can fix the team, which is actually the correct order of events 100% of the time.

Tony Winyard 13:26
And because if a CEO has that kind of awareness that they’re not perfect and that they do have issues they can work on, it’s going to make such a difference to the results they get?

Mark Green 13:34
Self awareness is fundamental to being coachable. That’s your that’s my quote. You asked me before. Do I have any quotes? Self Awareness is fundamental to being coachable? Because an ability, a willingness and ability to take action is also fundamental to being coachable. And those are things I test for up front. Absolutely.

Tony Winyard 13:58
So when you do those tests, the You mentioned so if someone didn’t pass a test, you know, they seem that they weren’t very self aware they weren’t receptive to being critiqued, you just don’t take them on?

Mark Green 14:09
Yeah, I might refer them to a different type of coach or professional who I know is a better fit for them. Or I will just not take them out. I recall. So I’ll tell you a quick story. I had a conversation a number of years ago with a with a CEO, who was running a very well known private jet company here in the United States, okay, based on the western half of the United States, and I was referred to her by one of her direct reports who’s a leader who I had worked with at a prior a prior client and had a phone call with this woman. And all the way through the phone call. She just kept pointing to her team as the problem. Her team is the problem the team is the problem and and just would not own any accountability. For the state of affairs and mind you by the way that you got to realise all the people I talked to these are not CEOs, running failing companies, these are already successful by any measure, like people, but they’re but their success is still sub optimised because of how they’re showing up. And then there’s there’s still things they want, that they don’t have, and there’s potential growth, and all of that, and that’s what this is after abundance, not not avoiding anything bad, right. And we got through the phone conversation with the CEO. And and I and I said, so it doesn’t sound like you really need any of my help that and she’s she agreed with me. So yeah, I guess you know, I said, Great. Well, I wish you a lot of success. You know, whereas another coach or somebody else might have been trying more desperately to to show her how she needs to be helped or to, you know, to push that on her but For me, it’s it’s, it’s not required because if if there’s no ownership of that I, I call it being at cause versus being at effect. You know, when you’re at effect you’re you’re essentially a victim of other of other other characters other actors, right? Whereas if you’re at cause you’re standing there saying, Hey, I am playing a part in this and my choices and my behaviours are affecting what’s my results, therefore, I must change those things to change my results. And and by the way, that’s part and parcel to what I what I call self awareness and being coachable.

Tony Winyard 16:38
So I’m gonna come back to the book, you mentioned that the book came out when was it last year was it October?

Mark Green 16:42

Tony Winyard 16:44
And what was the reaction like to the book,

Mark Green 16:46
The reaction was great, because there’s been a lot of academic work done on this topic of how our thinking gets in our way. But nothing that was written as like an operating handbook for Business mind. And so it’s not a giant book. And there are tools along the way that are sort of easy to use and practical to help us sort of get out of our get out of our own way. For example, one tool is the fear reduction tool. And it’s when you have fear around a decision or, or taking some sort of an action, think about maybe having a challenging conversation with a key customer, right. And that’s something that you might rightly have some fear around. Well, you pull out the fear, the reduce fear tool, and you work your way through it. And for most people, they don’t even get through the whole tool before they realise that there’s not a lot of basis for their fear and they just go ahead and do what they need to do. And and so the tool again, has all the science built into it, but without the person using the tool needing to understand the science to use the tool.

Tony Winyard 17:55
And so what was your original objective objective for the book and where they met

Mark Green 18:00
So the original objective for the book was to begin to position myself as a thought leader and to begin to broaden my impact beyond my own client portfolio. And use it essentially as a lever to start to figure out how to how to go out and do more speaking. And I’m still in the process of figuring that out. And I’ve been doing more of it for sure. But it’s just the beginnings of a platform for me that again, it’s going to be my next chapter. And I do expect in 2020, I am going to be doing quite a bit more speaking than I did, then I did this year.

Tony Winyard 18:41
Before, we were talking about how you structure your engagements. Tell us about that?

Mark Green 18:48
Yeah, absolutely. So there, there are some things that I do very deliberately to structure my engagements to make me feel Different to a client. And this gets back to this idea of expectations that I know you’re, you’re very keen on. And, and so this this is kind of in that zone of you can design a relationship, such that expectations are exceeded, as opposed to having to do superhuman things to exceed expectations in a different kind of a relationship, right. And so I choose to design the relationship this way. And for example, so I’m a coach, I’m a solo practitioner. And so I am my own product effectively for my clients. But what I what I do is, I try to create an element of scarcity that causes my clients to disproportionately value, their access to me and to the ways that I do this. Are I have a guarantee and my agreement and my client agreement and by the way, there’s very few coaches on the planet that offer a some form of a money back guarantee or you only pay what you think it’s worth, if you get the real value for this thing. And what that does is it causes two things to happen. The first thing is it reduces the perceived risk of engaging me, right, which by the way, supports premium fees, because there’s lower risk. And what what it also does is it causes them to think again, like wait a minute, there are very few coaches who offer a guarantee yet this guy offers a guarantee, but he must actually be pretty darn good. And, and so it creates what I want to create in the CEOs mind before they even agree to start working with me. Right. And the other thing that I do in my agreement is so again, I meet with the executive team as a team My clients only see me once a month. That’s my rhythm with my clients and summits once a quarter most it’s once a month. But I also have an open door policy. And this then is a little surprising to them. And the open door policy says, look, anyone who’s on the executive team was in the room with us has access to me via email or phone for quick sort of coaching interactions anytime they need me. Okay, and so on the one hand, I’m creating the scarcity. And on the other hand, I’m giving them access. And what I found historically is very few executives use the open door policy. When they do, it’s very appropriate. They’re short conversations, but super high value. So they get they get what they need. And what that does is it even further reinforces the fact that like, they think like, wait, wow, I actually Like I called mark, and he got back to me in 30 minutes and in like unscheduled and we had a five minute conversation and he gave me exactly what he needed. And that’s the mechanism of exceeding expectations. Okay, by giving them that access and and by them not kind of seeing behind the curtain how the rest of my model works that actually makes me available to them like that.

Tony Winyard 22:25
And so how did that come about? What was it that made you implement that,

Mark Green 22:30
uh, you know, so so I’m surrounded by a lot of really smart people. I’ve always I again, since this growth inflection in about 2009 I really have been surrounded by some very, very smart people. And And interestingly, the change your neighbourhood tool in activators is exactly aimed at this is making sure you’re surrounded by people way better than you because they also help you get out of your head and and so on. These things came from conversations and other people and other coaches I know, who have thought some of these things through and then eventually I kind of made it made it my own and put put the pieces together the way I wanted to. And it’s evolved, it’s evolved quite nicely.

Tony Winyard 23:18
What is the thing your clients or your prospective clients misunderstand about what you do?

Mark Green 23:25
I would say there’s there’s two things that come up pretty pretty regularly. One is that there is a misconception or a blind spot around the true cost of tolerating the wrong person on your team. And, and I see this really, really commonly. And it’s this idea that, you know, well, this this person’s been with us forever. They’re a top producer, but they’re a cultural wrecking ball. Right. And, and it’s like, yeah, that’s the person that’s got to go like, not next week. But tomorrow, and, and yet, the leaders don’t think about those things because we are the way again back to how our brain works. We were beautiful at rationalising and making up stories, and all the stories about all the bad things that will happen without putting any weight to the collateral damage that this person is doing and the price we’re actually paying today to keep them here. And I’ve seen this pattern play out over and over again. And so this is a conversation I have again at the screening point, with a new client around really being rigorous around their team and kind of getting a gut feel for them as to what they are or aren’t prepared to do if it turns out that they’ve got some of the wrong people on the bus. And it’s a I will tell you that virtually every client that I’ve engaged with, since I’ve been doing this, so this is a very sweeping statement. I’m about To make within the first 18 months of my engagement, at least one person who started on the senior team was no longer on the senior team. That’s how in depth that’s how how much of an epidemic this tolerating of underperformers is. And, and I still have clients. I mean, just this week I met with a couple of clients I’ve been working with for years. And to some degree, they still have this issue. And I still have to push these buttons. It’s never ending. It’s a never ending battle. So that’s a big one. The other one which is kind of interesting is nobody knows how to hire a coach. And, and it’s, you know, you’re you’re out there running your own business, you know how to run your business and make your decisions. But very few people have hired coaches multiple times, so you don’t understand how to do it. You don’t understand what questions to ask. You don’t understand what qualifications to look for or any of that. And I and I realised this once a number of years ago actually wrote an article it’s on my website. It’s called How to hire a coach. And and it’s not even about me, it’s just like the CEOs guide to what you need to think about. And some of the things are. You know, does the coach is the coach committed to continuing education? And how many hours a days of education? Has that coach self funded for themselves in the past year or two years? And by the way, what are the kinds of things they’re learning? And why does the coach I call it eat their own dog food? Do they practice what they preach? They have a coach. Right? Just like if I’m sitting here saying, hey, Tony, boy, you really need to hire a coach. And you say, So Mark, when’s the last time you you? You spoke to your coach, and I couldn’t answer the question. Right? Oh, wait a minute. I’m a bit of a fraud that aren’t i right. Another one, are you prepared to offer a guarantee?

Right, why why or why not? You know? And oh, and then the last one is this. And this is pretty important. This gets back to this idea of pushing people to the point of discomfort, right? There’s a misconception that a CEO has to have a good feeling about the fit of a coach. Right? But the question is, well, what is good fit mean for a coach? Like, does it mean that you feel all warm and fuzzy and cared for? Or does it mean that that, you know, the coach cares deeply, but they actually make you feel uncomfortable? Because isn’t that why you’re hiring a coach? And so and so oftentimes, the criteria for fit, are misapplied. And I’ll find this when I meet a team sometimes, because sometimes the CEO say, Well, I want to hire you, but I need you to come meet my team first. And I’ll say to the CEO, look, am I meeting your team? Because you’re going to hire me and you want me to meet the team? are they meeting your team because you’re going to ask them for feedback as to whether you should hire me Because if you ask them for feedback as to whether you hire me, and I do what I’m supposed to do in front of your team, they’re going to be several of them that don’t want you to hire me, because I am threatening them. I’m putting, I’m making them uncomfortable, okay, but that’s why you want me here. And so I actually inoculate the CEO prior to seeing the team. But again, these are criteria around what you really should be looking for to hire a coach if you’re serious about committing to the process. And, and improving yourself and getting a practitioner who is capable, qualified, and has integrity with their own process and their own beliefs.

Tony Winyard 28:40
Would you say there are many people at CEO level who don’t have a coach?

Mark Green 28:47
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, here’s the thing. We looked at this a couple of years ago. Do you know that in the United States, there is more of a required Continuing education requirement for a mortician for a funeral director than there is for a coach. Okay, so there’s a reason that attorneys and physicians, okay, and even by the way hairstylists against another one in the United States, hairstylist and morticians all have a required continuing education requirements, so they can be licenced to practice. In the United States, that number for a coach is zero. So there is a very, very low barrier to entry. And there are plenty of people who hang out a shingle and want to become a coach. And so there is a lot of noise in the space for sure. And I think that’s a part of the reason why people struggle and I’ve also run into a situation where people have been bitten before they’ve hired a coach that was really a bit of a train wreck. And so there are gun shy right for the for the second round. We’re trying to do it again. And I have multiple clients where I am the second or third coach that they’ve worked with. And, and I typically get back from them like literally after the first lunch, first month, their first meeting we have Wow, this now I understand, like, now I get get it now I get what the differences

Tony Winyard 30:23
you mentioned that you only take on, one or two people, do most people require a coach on a long term basis? Or is it just some thing temporary to get them through a particular phase?

Mark Green 30:35
So it’s a philosophical question, Tony. I’m a believer that my role than the focus of my practice is to serve as the chief bar raiser for my clients. Okay. And the implication is if the client is ever wanting to say, Okay, you know what, we’re done growing, like we’re good with the status quo, that’s when I’m ready to be done with But, but it’s like, the way it works is we achieve a milestone, we celebrate it. And then I turn around and say, This is great. Now, here’s what’s next. And I raised the bar. And I raised the bar and I raised the bar and I raised the bar, because there was always something to be learning and, and, and doing as a leader and as a team that is, you know, virtuous for the business. And so my view and I tell my clients this upfront is to be working with you for a very, very long time. But to have that relationship be based on an exchange of value. Although I only require a one year commitment at a time, and that’s intentional, because every year, I want my clients to to deliberately OPT back in to another year with me. I never want to presume it. I want I want that to be a deliberate choice every year because it’s an affirmation of the value It’s an affirmation of their commitment to the process.

Tony Winyard 32:05
What do you feel about the use of transparency when your communicating with clients?

Mark Green 32:10
So I’m a big fan of transparency. And it’s a it’s a hot button of mine that I’ve used to help a bunch of different clients change how they communicate with their clients. And I am very transparent as well. Even when I’m talking with a CEO I’ve never met for the first time. I’ll tell them anything they want to hear. I’ll answer any question. I’ll introduce them to any client of mine. Any any of those things? I’m an open book. But a couple of examples I’ll give you particularly around transparency and client communications that I feel very passionately about. And a couple of examples that come to mind are a general contractor client that I that I’ve worked with in a restaurant client, that’s a current client of mine where we change The level of transparency that they use when they’re communicating with their customers, particularly when when things aren’t right. And so in the general contractor, for example, we actually had them put a communication rhythm in place with their clients over the course of the engagement. So they weren’t just meeting with the with the, and this is a company that did very, very high end interior renovations in Manhattan. Okay, so these are big ticket items, high profile clientele with very high expectations. And we had them put in a weekly meeting rhythm, so that every week, there was a meeting with the client, no matter what was happening in the relationship. And what it did was it really put people at ease because if you’ve ever hired a contractor before, you know, the biggest concern of the customer is I don’t want to get screwed. And then the next concern is, am I going to get what I want? Right? And so the contractor, no matter who you are have to overcome Am I going to get screwed? And then the best way to do that was through this transparent communication. And in the restaurant is a little different. Because think about like, when you go to the doctor or the dentist and you’re sitting in the waiting room and they’re behind schedule, there’s, there’s there’s no transparency there. Right? Unless you have a remarkable doctor or dentist, there’s no transparency there. And it’s infuriating, right? It’s infuriating. And you do the math in your head, like wait, my time is worth more than their time. And this is horrible. And, you know, should I leave Should I stay in this whole thing. So at the at the restaurant, we we had them start to be much more transparent with with the customers. And so if there is a weight or something is behind schedule, they’ll they’ll they’ll pour the client, a complimentary drink, and they’ll disclose with full transparency. The reason why and, and it helps a lot. Because it’s like you it doesn’t always have to be good news. Like good news or bad news doesn’t matter. It’s just news. But knowing versus not knowing is what makes the difference, not whether it’s positive or minus.

Tony Winyard 35:12
Yeah, when people are informed, then they’re going to be less likely to complain, because at least they know what’s happening.

Mark Green 35:19
Exactly. You bet. And so I’m a big fan of transparency. I’m also a big fan of transparency in organisations in terms of open book management, and, you know, communicating results and financial results and all of that, because, you know, if you’ve got all these people in your business whose efforts every day essentially somehow tie into your balance sheet and your p&l and the results of the business, and yet they come to work every day and have no idea what that linkages or how what they do actually ties into those results. Well, then whose fault is it? If if people aren’t doing exactly what we need them to do the way we need them to do it to drive our results. It’s the leaders fault, because we’re not, we’re not explaining that to them. And so I have a number of clients who, who have embarked on financial literacy projects with their employees, to educate them around how the business actually functions financially, so that they can be explicitly aware of how their day to day ties into the driving of either gross profit or net profit in the business or even items that that drive a more favourable balance sheet.

Tony Winyard 36:37
You were telling me before about you received an amazing experience with Uncruise?

Mark Green 36:43
There’s a there’s an amazing little Cruise Line based in Seattle, Washington here in the United States called Uncruise. And they are a small ship, eco adventure cruise line and my wife and I have travelled with them twice so far. And in fact, we’re leaving In a week for another trip with them with all three of my boys. And the largest ship in their fleet is 84 passengers. And I think the smallest ship in their fleet is maybe 16 or 20 passengers. And they do all these super interesting itineraries. But this is an amazing experience because the, the everybody on board, you just you just know that a company does an amazing job with their people, when you show up and everyone who you meet is remarkable. And and this is from the captain of the ship, to the bartender, to the waiters and waitresses to the rooms, stewards to the adventure guides. It’s a remarkable experience. And what they do is they curate this experience like you’re almost on a private yacht, even to the point where the bridge of the ship is an open bridge. So you could walk up onto the bridge and hang out with Catherine and And we were in Hawaii in January of this year. And on on the last night, the captain came down with his guitar and everybody had a sing along. And oh, and one of the other things they have baked into their model, which is quite remarkable, is there’s a misoo song board every ship, I think about these are not large cruise liners, right? These are small ship, and everybody just as a part of their cruise fare. Everybody gets a massage during the week. So it’s an amazing experience in amazing destinations. That’s fueled by amazing people. And they really have the model figured out. And I guess it’s another example kind of like my own story, Tony about where you can build the model to exceed the expectations. You don’t have to take a regular old model and then do all The superhuman stuff to exceed expectations. And it’s, it’s so much more sustainable, right? And it’s frankly, it’s a lot more fun and interesting to be a part of that and getting it right at the model level. Then then having to go through all these hoops to make extraordinary happen for people.

Tony Winyard 39:20
Cruise liners; typically people think of cruise liners as, you know, for retirees or whatever. So how would they create a great experience for your kids?

Mark Green 39:28
Well, so So first of all, you you the minimum age is 13 years old. So it’s not little, these are not little kids. My kids are 1721 and 25. Just for perspective. So but the but the, the there isn’t a kids agenda. I mean, these are these are kids doing adult things, right, but you’re, you’re snorkelling and swimming with sea lions and whale sharks and hiking in the desert. And kayaking you know, Ocean kayaking, and you know, all these kinds of things, while you’re also learning about the environment and the ecosystems and the animals and the plants and all of those things from very, very knowledgeable lecturers and guides. So but it’s not for everyone. I mean, this is not for everybody, for sure. But it’s not like there’s a kids a kids experience. And frankly, Mike, my kids are of the age where they’re just going to show up and appreciate the premium open bar if you catch my drift.

Tony Winyard 40:29
You mentioned before about the the book that you’ve written and the book you’re in the process of writing…

Mark Green 40:40
It’s written, it’s going to be published in mid January of 2020.

Tony Winyard 40:43
And so what is the aim for that book?

Mark Green 40:46
So this book is called Creating a culture of accountability. And it’s a monograph, which is a term you and your listeners might not quite be familiar with. But think of a monograph is a very short book on a single topic, that It goes deep, that has some tools attached to it. And the idea here was that I have yet to find a CEO who does not need to talk about accountability inside their organisation. Okay, like this is a massive issue for everybody. How do I get people to do the things they’re supposed to do the way they’re supposed to do them? And why is this always a struggle? And why do we always have to do this? And so I decided to write the book. And, and it’s in the monograph form because my, my coaching affiliation, my coaching organisation, which is called gravitas, impact, is actually going to be creating a library of monographs. And they asked me to write the first one. And so that’s what this one is going to be. And the idea here is it’s it’s about as a leader, what what is the what is the structure, what are the rules, what are the behaviours and what are the processes that we need to put in place in in In our organisation, so that we can dramatically improve accountability. And, and that’s what this book is about. And you can read the entire book, depending on how quickly you read 60 to 90 minutes. And it is very prescriptive, to help a leader implement things that will improve the accountability in the organisation.

Tony Winyard 42:24
What are your general thoughts around exceeding expectations?

Mark Green 42:29
My general thoughts are that I I’ve already shared it essentially it’s I’m back to the model, Tony. I mean, my general thoughts are if you’re going to talk about exceeding expectations, and you don’t talk about how to do it on a sustainable basis, which which requires non heroic activities, okay, you’ve got to go back to the model. You’ve got to go back to how you’re structured, and you’ve got to get it baked in. So that You are pre disposing your customers through the customer journey that you’ve designed to be able to have extraordinary experiences. And actually, if you if you want, there’s a book that I’m currently reading from somebody who I just met. That’s a very, very powerful book in terms of helping a leader, think this through and really design the customer experience in a way that it’s scalable, like I’m talking about from a model standpoint, is that something so the book is, is called “Never lose a customer again”, written by Joey Coleman. He’s a fantastic speaker and an amazing thinker. And he’s got this process where you’re, you’re really mapping the customers emotional journey, and taking a multi channel approach to creating an amazing experience for your customers. And while His book is about never lose a customer again, which is scarcity focus. It absolutely fills what what what I’m calling the key criteria here of being able to build the model that’s sustainable, without needing heroic efforts to exceed expectations on a regular basis.

Tony Winyard 44:19
Funnily enough, that book was already on my Amazon wish list. I can’t remember who it was it recommended it. But someone else recommended that. So yeah, I will be reading that.

Mark Green 44:29
Yeah, I met Joey and heard him speak a month or two ago, and he was absolutely fantastic.

Tony Winyard 44:37
If people want to find out more about you, Mark, where would they go to?

Mark Green 44:41
So there’s three places I’ll point you to. For those of you on social media. I’m quite active on LinkedIn publishing content, and I’m at coach Mark Green on LinkedIn. And it’s the word Coach Mark Green just as one big word on LinkedIn. You can also get to me on Book website for activators which is And my coaching site is And that’s how you can find me online.

Tony Winyard 45:15
Mark, it’s been a real pleasure, love the example you gave of exceeding expectations and I hope you have a great day over there in New Jersey.

Mark Green 45:22
Hey Tony, thank you so much for having me. Cheers to all your listeners.

Tony Winyard 45:28
Next week, Episode 70 is the first time we have a returning visitor. Alan Berg was on the podcast back in Episode 15, which is just over a year ago. Alan is a marketing expert in the wedding industry. However, a lot of the advice he gives is really relevant to almost any industry. So even if you have nothing to do with weddings, I would still advise you to listen to this. He gives such great advice and some really good stories as well. So that’s next week with Alan Berg. I hope you enjoyed this week’s show. Please do subscribe, leave a review for us and if you could share the episode have a great week.

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