EE072 – Adam Sinkus

Tony Winyard 0:00
Exceeding expectations Episode 72 call centres and digital marketing that’s what we explore in today’s episode with Adam Sinkus who has his hands in both of those two different areas we find out a lot more about how to be more effective with your digital marketing and also what it takes to make a good call centre. He’s involved in training call centre operators and what does the word at the attributes are good call centre person needs and where do people typically go wrong, etc. If you liked today’s episode, wanna share it with someone who you feel may get get some good value from it. And while you’re on iTunes or whichever platform you use, it’d be great if you could leave a review for us that really helps to get the word spread about the podcast, and maybe subscribe to us at the same time. Hope you enjoyed this week’s episode with Adam Sinkus

exceeding expectations My guest today, Adam Sinkus, how you Adam?

Adam Sinkus 1:06
I’m doing wonderful.

Tony Winyard 1:09
And it’s pretty warm. I guess where you are.

Adam Sinkus 1:12
Well, we’re in our cool part of the year down here. We’ll probably see the 70s today

Tony Winyard 1:20
I would, I wouldn’t call that cold. Where I am in London that’s pretty warm.

Adam Sinkus 1:25
Well, you know, for for Florida we hit 90s with about 1,000% humidity, you know, most of the summer so this is our cool season.

Tony Winyard 1:37
You told me before you’re from Michigan, so how do you handle that kind of humidity?

Adam Sinkus 1:42
Yes, stay inside and enjoy the air conditioning. Right? Yeah, it’s it’s different than than just hot. Like Yeah, like Texas hot because, you know, you can’t get away from it even in the shade.

Tony Winyard 2:00
And how long have you been living in Florida?

Adam Sinkus 2:03
been down here for about a year and a half. But you know it’s it’s a different world than what I’m used to Michigan but we make the best of it. We enjoy it but soon enough I’ll get back to my snow in Michigan

Tony Winyard 2:19
Did you come here from Michigan, you weren’t anywhere else before?

Adam Sinkus 2:23
Nope. No straight from Michigan down to Florida for opportunity for work and so here we are.

Tony Winyard 2:34
Talking about work. So what is it you do?

Adam Sinkus 2:36
My nine to five is, is I work for a company here in Southwest Florida 600 seat call centre. But you know, like every entrepreneur I’m hustling six or seven other things as well. So I also do leadership and culture based training and consulting as well as I am just in the process of working with my partner to really launch and grow a digital marketing agency agency as well so lots of irons in the fire and stay very busy.

Tony Winyard 3:17
So which of those which is it that you first got into or which one have you been in the longest?

Adam Sinkus 3:22
so the call centre stuff up but that’s where I got started kind of in the business world was working in call centres, you know, way back, that’s probably been 12, 13 years now I was on the phones, helping people fix their iPhones over the phone support and you know, it’s kind of blown up from there. I’ve done everything from leadership to quality to training, and anything else in between that you can possibly think could be done at a call centre so that that’s where I’ve spent the most time but Now it’s time to replace all that with, you know my own opportunities and the things that I want to do.

Tony Winyard 4:09
Have call centres changed much over the last decade if so what way have they changed?

Adam Sinkus 4:16
What do you mean?

Tony Winyard 4:21
Well, let’s put it this way. So in England, about 10 years ago, call centres had a kind of bad reputation because they typically seemed to be in countries where people’s command of English wasn’t always that great. And so it was a frustrating experience, but that seems to happen less now. I just wonder if there’s anything similar where you are?

Adam Sinkus 4:43
So companies have realised a lot that we have to bring call centres back back to the countries where the language is natively spoken because of that customer experience So, I think it is changing. I don’t think it’s changed completely. And the reality is, right, so, you know, I work in a state of 600 people and, and we pay them, you know, 10 bucks an hour. So it’s where we’re not paying people, you know, huge amounts of money, but we’re expecting them to, you know, give 1,000% so it’s a, you know, it is a bit of a challenging space. That’s a, you know, my experience, the biggest, biggest challenges come from attrition and culture, within call centres, and that’s, across the board.

Tony Winyard 5:44
To be successful doing that, for the person who’s actually answering the calls, what do they need, what qualities?

Adam Sinkus 5:52
So I think the biggest one is patience. Honestly. You know it. It’s a very monotonous job. You Pick up the phone, you answer the same five questions, input some information and hang up the phone and five seconds later you’re picking up the next call, you know, so it’s it’s a very monotonous job. So I’d say patience is a really big piece of it, then the most successful call centre agents I see. Also have just the that natural, like, positive tone in their voice that that positive outlook in life, you know, like those are the ones that make it successful because they’re there you can tell they’re there to to win, for lack of a better way to put it.

Tony Winyard 6:44
And do people tend to stay long doing that job?

Adam Sinkus 6:48
I wish they would stay longer. It would make my job as a training manager. A little less stressful, but now call centre industries huge huge turnover, you know, we, on average, I would say, you know, most call centres are probably a 27 to 28% attrition rate, which is about three times most other industries.

Tony Winyard 7:19
From your point of view in training them what is the most difficult aspect of what you do?

Adam Sinkus 7:24
So, I think the most difficult aspect of what I do is really getting people to buy into, they can make a long term go at this. If they just put in the effort and energy, right. It is a $10 an hour job, it’s a $15 an hour job depending on where you’re at, right if you they tend to be lower, lower paid jobs. But at the end of the day, there’s almost always opportunities to move up because the Because it is so volatile in, in attrition, and and it’s a volatile just and in the structure of it, there’s always things that are changing and clients are always asking for more from us, you know, so it’s like, I think if you can get people to realise that if they stick it out a little bit and work hard and show that effort, they can move up, but a lot of them for for low wages don’t want to put that effort in because they’re like, well, you’re only paying me, you know, and and that’s a challenge. It’s always been a challenge in call centres.

Tony Winyard 8:43
You said that there’s a lot of chance for progression, so once they do get that progression, I imagine the wages will go up?

Adam Sinkus 8:49
Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, wages do go up. You know, but I think people that come into a lot of individual contributor roles or line level jobs, right? fail to see that kind of global perspective, right? So they’ve been trained, the blue collar worker has been trained to deal with what’s in front of me, what is my job, I’m going to do my job, and I’m going to go home. And I think, to be successful. If you look at really, if you look at the most successful people, they’re not looking at what’s in front of them very rarely, are they looking at what’s directly in front of them and leaving it at that? They look so far beyond what’s actually happening and happening in front of them and start asking questions to, why can’t I get to there? Why can’t I have somebody do this? Why can I move into this right? So I think the key is just really Getting that mindset shift of understanding the total business to know where you can go within that business and then setting a plan and a goal to do so. And I don’t see a lot of individual contributors doing that because they’re just head down. Let’s do the work and go home.

Tony Winyard 10:21
So when someone first comes in when you first start training people are you normally able to spot someone who does have that kind of attitude? You can see who will go far, is it easy to spot?

Adam Sinkus 10:34
Oh, it’s incredibly easy to spot because they just, they come in with a different mindset. You know, I do in almost all my training classes for new hires, I do this activity where I put put a group of words up there on the projector and, and, you know, have them decide which word they feel best. describes them. And one of those slides has happy, excited, tire or nervous, right? And I can honestly tell you the people that jump to excited and happy. That’s like a huge telltale sign that they’re in it to win it the people that go to tired and nervous. I mean, you’re talking the first day of training, we run this, you know, so you get a lot of people to go to tired and nervous, and I’m like, this is your job, like, you should be happy and excited, like you have a job and, and you have an opportunity and you know, and, and so it’s just really challenging space, and then you can see how they participate in training too. Usually, by the end of the first day, I know who’s going to be successful. I know who’s going to be difficult and I know who is there. For maybe not the right reason as well,

Tony Winyard 12:04
Because it sounds like subconsciously, anyone who’s telling you they’re tired in that situation. They’re just saying subconsciously, well, I’m just here as a stopgap This is a temporary job?

Adam Sinkus 12:13
Exactly.

Tony Winyard 12:18
The call centres that you’re involved in, are they just for or one company or a variety of companies? How does that work?

Adam Sinkus 12:24
A variety of companies I’ve worked in single client call centres. Currently I’m in one that supports; we support a total of like 50 or 60 clients. So it’s a big mix, which brings its own challenges in place but you know, I it being involved with the training piece of it, I just, I wait for the directions right. I wait for them to tell me. We need this this many people for this training class, and Go, okay, and pull out those materials. And you know, I can be trained in something different every week. And in a way, that’s a good thing. It keeps it exciting, keeps it interesting. It makes it makes the day go by.

Tony Winyard 13:18
And what kind of industries would you be involved in?

Adam Sinkus 13:21
So currently, I’m involved in insurance. Not on the sales end, but more on the support end. But in the past, I’ve been involved in the automotive verticals, healthcare verticals, technical verticals as well. So seen a lot of different industries and a lot of different call centres and it’s always interesting because you walk into new into a new call centre and they go, we’re different from other call centres. And usually within about three or four hours, I can tell you that they’re not any different than any other call centre. They’re all running into the same issues and have the same headaches and are trying to figure out the same problems.

Tony Winyard 14:05
And what typically would some of those things be?

Adam Sinkus 14:08
So typically their attrition is almost always number one on the list, getting people to stay for low wages and being engaged enough to stay longer than you know, 90 to 180 days is kind of the the target starting point if you can get them past their usually they’ll stay for a year or two. And then the the other ones is culture at the individual contributor level. So at the agent level, just driving culture and that stems a lot of times from, I would say most commonly it stems from the leadership that is in place because they’ve been promoted as being the best agent in an area and now They’re like you perform all on the phones, we’re going to make you a team leader or supervisor. And then they just kind of throw them in and they give them training on the processes of as a leader but they don’t give them any training on being a leader in itself. Right. And so that’s really those. Those are the two big driving factors a big driving concerns that I see in call centres. And the last one is what we call a schedule adherence. Bo and that that’s just getting people to, to kind of hear back you know, it here to when they’re supposed to be on the phones or on the phones when they’re not supposed to be on phones are not supposed to be on the phones and just getting people to follow that schedule because it is kind of a step back for a lot of people. call centres if you’ve never worked in in them are very regimented in we know exactly How many people at any given time during the day that we need to have on the phone? And so all of our scheduling is done based on that? And so like, if we tell you that, you know, if we we outline that your break should be from 10.15 to 10.30? Well, it’s because we have the coverage between 10.15 to 10.30 to cover your break, right? So, that’s always a challenge for people because they they don’t quite. It’s almost, you know, it’s almost going back to like, grade school and, you know, and being micromanaged a little bit and people just get frustrated with that.

Tony Winyard 16:40
I imagine with the technology that’s available now that the call centre for the company, they’re able to see so much data about each particular person working as a call operator that they can see how well or not so well, they’re doing quite easily?

Adam Sinkus 16:56
yeah. Oh, yeah. There’s a tonne of technology. Oh, You know, at any given time, we can look at dashboarding to see, you know, who’s on the phone who’s not on the phone, what, you know what state they’re in, right? Are they actually available to take calls? Are they in another state that they can’t take calls? We have monitoring to those schedules, you know, so we can see, are they following their schedule and we can, you know, pretty much see everything that they’re doing in real time. There’s about a three to four second delay from the time it hits the system to the time we can see it. So we know what’s going on at all times. And there’s different teams that manage different pieces of that. We can also listen to calls remotely so you know, I can be sitting at my desk and be listening to calls live calls all over the call centre ,you know, in hearing what’s going on as well.

Tony Winyard 18:02
The sort of call centres that you’re helping would they mostly be support type or sales or a mixture?

Adam Sinkus 18:11
So it’s been a mixture I despise the sales end of things because I think the spray and pray philosophy of call centre sales is outdated. But I’ve worked in those environments as well. But mostly most of what I I’ve spent time in is inbound call centres, more on support on two things. And, it’s a little less stressful.

Tony Winyard 18:48
But I guess the big difference then would be with a sales team, they just got a script they’re working from where with support. There’s less of a script, maybe?

Adam Sinkus 18:57
Yes and no. So sales is Very scripted, and it’s a numbers game, right? So most outbound call centres that are doing sales are expecting between eight and 15% close rate. You know, and they want you to make, between 100 and 150 calls a day. So it’s like it’s hammered down, put the pedal to the floor and, just, make calls, right? So they want you to make all those calls because they know they’re going to call only close the small percent of it. With inbound there’s still a lot of scripting that goes on in inbound call centres. And it depends the nature and what you do, as well. You know, obviously, like technical support, is a little less scripted because, well, think about the thousands of things that could potentially go wrong with Your iPhone right? Whereas the insurance and the things is a bit more scripted because there’s a clearer set of information that we need to receive right. Nothing is ever perfectly scripted, but it sets itself up as a good guide.

Tony Winyard 20:24
Just guessing, as obviously I don’t know, but when you you’re saying that for the sales calls, there’s an 8 to 15% success rate, that must be pretty demoralising. Is there far more attrition for people are doing sales rather than support?

Adam Sinkus 20:38
Oh, yeah. tonnes of attrition in the sales end of things. Not only because it’s demoralising to the individuals that are doing it. But these companies expect you to meet that number. And if you’re not, they can find, five or 10 Other people that, they’ll put their butt in that seat and, and have them hit that number, it’s just a, it’s a very aggressive, they tend to be very aggressive call centres that, they’re just simply playing a numbers game in the sales end of things. And like I said, I think it’s outdated, I think relationship sales is, is where it’s at. And everything I do in my own businesses is all about relationship sales and referrals and things like that. And people are a lot more receptive when you build that rapport with them as opposed to just, making a whole bunch of phone calls at three to five seconds, up to two or three minutes of here, Hustle, Hustle, Hustle, it’s by my insurance product by my insurance product. Okay, great. You’re not interested. Click Next. You know, it’s It is that kind of crazy environment and, and it’s demeaning, it’s challenging. It’s frustrating. It’s everything you can possibly imagine that sales can be on steroids.

Tony Winyard 22:20
You just mentioned about the relationship things that you’re doing. So what kind of things are you involved in? Other company that you mentioned?

Adam Sinkus 22:26
Yeah. So, I am launching my own consulting firm that been launching it for about the last six months. And we do leadership and culture consulting specifically. So like I mentioned, all those challenges that leaders that get promoted in call centre. So that’s kind of the the thinking behind where I went with my consulting business is knowing that this happens a lot in a lot broader perspective. also partnered up with a wonderful guy Josh Russo to to build out a digital marketing firm as well called Elevare agency web pages SEO hosting you know we can we take care of those all those digital marketing needs Pay Per Click Google AdWords all that kind of stuff that helps your business get seen you know when you go on Google so when you’re just out there searching for whatever you need

Tony Winyard 23:34
and so from doing that I guess you get more involved with… AI is getting bigger and bigger in that whole space?

Adam Sinkus 23:44
It is but it’s in the digital space and it’s kind of a misnomer. It’s less about AI. It’s more about understanding how people are searching and how Google and Bing Are scraping that data, right? Understanding the algorithms that get you there. Automating things is great. But if you look at the best web pages out there, they have tonnes of unique content that drives organic behaviour. Right. So we launched an article it was the best roofing six Best Roofing websites of 2017. And that was launched he Josh launch that a couple years ago. And that article still even now does great. Why because it’s got references to things that people are searching right best of top, things like that people want to know about it, and so it’s it’s less about automation. And it’s in the digital space. It’s more about creating unique organic content that people want to read, and people want to find. And enjoy.

Tony Winyard 25:14
What would you say, in the digital marketing space that you do; How is AI most beneficial?

Adam Sinkus 25:23
Ai is most beneficial? I think it in really looking at behaviour of how people use pages, use web pages, right. So, we use software to look at, we call it heat mapping, I can actually see, how far people are scrolling down our pages. I can see, where they’re clicking on those pages, and we use all that data to make educated decisions. Where do we need to spend time and effort in Making this page more effective, right? It’s a, it’s a really, really cool tool that gives us a tonne of information. And I think that’s, that’s really one of the big ones. The other one is, learning how to run, pay per click advertising campaigns, things like Facebook campaigns and knowing how to set those up so that they do all the hard work for you. Right, so segmented, setting it up. So it segments the right group of people and things like that. But then, once you get one of those advertising campaigns on like Facebook setup, right, and just let it run, they, they tend to perform really, really well. AI is all about the inputs, that it’s believed that for a long time, and proven it time and time again with different projects where I’ve instituted AI.

Tony Winyard 27:02
Talking about, you said about heat pages and the AdWords and so on; with the companies you’re working with have any of the company’s been really surprised with the results they’ve got from using those types of things, maybe they weren’t so familiar with or didn’t understand much about?

Adam Sinkus 27:17
Yeah, we’ve got a roofing client right now that we’ve seen like almost 400% gain in their click through rate since we spent time with their page and, and rebuilt their page and have been adding the SEO aspect into it as well. So you know, like I said, all those tools are tools that we use so that we can be smarter about how their pages are being used, just so that we can make sure that we’re maximising how people are using the page and really the big one is getting people to click and fill out that form. That says I’m interested in your service

Tony Winyard 28:02
Going onto the actual exceeding expectations element we were talking before and you mentioned about a culture based leadership programme?

Adam Sinkus 28:11
It’s amazing what happens when you build culture in an organisation I was working in a call centre and it had the typical leader bunch, you know, the promoted call promoted agents that knew how to perform well on the phones but didn’t know how to lead people. So one of my initiatives in that site was to really build out a programme where we could teach these leaders how to actually lead their teams not just you know, sort of speak become the the dictator from behind the desk. So I built out a 12 month programme. It was once a month, right, these are busy people and I had to figure out How much time Can I keep them in a room and teach them something without taking you know, without taking too much time away from what they have to do every day because the end of the day they got to run the business too. And so we really sat down and and I did some interview panels with leaders and and really learned what they felt their challenges were and I think that was, that was a big piece. I think. Anytime you’re working in a space where you’re trying to solve a problem, you have to stop and listen to the people that are experiencing the problem first, to know where you’re going to go with it. From there, we built out 12 different programmes for them. They were about two hours long each. Everything from having difficult conversations to tying your team’s goals into the site’s goals to talking, talking to your team on a positive note, positive link how to use positive language successfully. We did all kinds of all kinds of stuff with them. But really, you know, the goal here was to increase the culture on the site through effective use of the leaders are through the leaders. Learning how to lead people and, and what we found is from we started this post the it’s something that I absolutely despise, but we have to measure everything, the annual culture survey. It was kind of the driver for this too. We started this just after that annual culture survey results were posted out and we saw in categories for the following Culture survey. At the following year, we saw gains in areas like my team leader cares about me, we saw about a 30% gain in that which was absolutely huge. And that was simply driven by convincing the team leaders that if you just go get up every single day, premier desk and walk around and find each one of your people and say, Hey, good morning, how’s your day going? Like, anything like that, but making that touch point every day, like that in itself was just you could see it. As soon as I started doing that after about two weeks, you could see a shift in the mentality of people. And that was really our biggest game we sell we also saw gains and categories around understanding what the company where the company is going, understanding how they fit into the company. And we saw performance gains, as well in the, in our actual KPIs that we’re reporting out to our clients as a result of all this

Tony Winyard 32:16
What were the results in terms of less attrition and better returns maybe?

Adam Sinkus 32:23
So we saw our interaction times reduced with our overall behaviour on the phones improved, so, people were happy, genuinely happier. So they were a bit, more polite, more patient on the phones, we saw, again, we said, just our quality scores went up. I think that was a big one that we saw overall. Which is something experimental To most clients in a call centre is that the the quality scoring is, meeting or exceeding a specific mark which is usually around somewhere around 80 or 85% of all quality evaluations should be at a 90% or above is kind of a typical standard. And so, we started actually, just really blowing us away, we’re getting up into like 95 96% of our quality evaluations were passing now. We saw coaching become way more effective. We saw team leaders coaching on topics one time instead of three and four times. So we didn’t have that same kind of repetitive behaviour as well.

Tony Winyard 33:48
When we had a conversation before the call started, you were telling me about an experience where your expectations were exceeded, with your daughter.

Adam Sinkus 33:57
Well, my daughter she was about 9 months old; my daughter has a couple of special needs. She has seizures and, very mild cerebral palsy. And I say very mild because most people, when they look at her, they, they can’t even tell if there’s an issue. But when she was little, we definitely spent a lot of time in and out of doctors offices and appointments and there was a time we’d spent all day at the hospital about six or seven different appointments and it just exhausted from the day so we decided to stop and catch a meal on our way home. And, like every nine month old, they take the most opportune times to become fussy and disagreeable to the situation. So we get to the restaurant and she just doesn’t want to cooperate doesn’t want to sit there. Yeah, of course, my wife and I were like taking her in and out of the restaurant just trying to like, carry around, see if we can get her to calm down to no avail. But the server finally she comes over, she gets our order, she’s taken care of everything. But, it really turned exceptional when our food came. Because she took like, five or six minutes, which felt at that moment like an eternity and played with our daughter, just enough to like distract her so that we could actually just sit there and eat and I remember she was running around, she had five or six tables, so she’s busy. And there’s no reason that she had to stop and do that for us. But it’s one of those things that’s kind of like always stuck with me. And it’s a silly example, I use sometimes when I’m in training when I’m talking about exceptional customer service

Tony Winyard 36:08
For someone working in a call centre, how are they able to exceed the expectations of the people they are calling, what are the ways they can do that?

Adam Sinkus 36:17
Yes. So the the number one way in my mind is listening, right? So, truly listening to what people are saying, I teach all the time that we don’t say things because we just want to talk we say things because we want to be heard. And so if you can listen to those cues as a, as a call centre agent, and really pick up on them that provides you a really good opportunity to provide exceptional customer service. You know, I liken it to this right if somebody calls in you know, we’re in the insurance industry. Somebody calls in because their window got broken on their car by a by an errant baseball at a baseball game. You know, their kids baseball games specifically right? simply asking the question like Oh, did little Jimmy when, you know, like that goes such a long way with with a customer because now they’re they can see how engaged you are in their, in their experience and what they’re saying.

Tony Winyard 37:36
And do the people who tend to get the best ratings from the customers, is it just a natural thing? Or is it things that they are learning? Or a combination?

Adam Sinkus 37:52
I think you know, I think some of it they come in with naturally. You know, I always ask you I was asked like, usually in the first couple days and training, I always ask the question, what’s your definition of exceptional customer service? And you get a lot of varying answers on what exceptional customer services is. But, there’s a few words that, people typically associate with exceptional customer service. And when you don’t hear those words come out of somebody’s mouth. I can usually tell that they’re going to struggle in the role. So it’s, where it’s like listening, thankful. concise, appreciative. Those are really the big ones. You know, if you think about if you think about most of your interactions with with things like The grocery store or short term customer interactions, right, checkout at the grocery store or ordering your fast food meal. People want quick, friendly, efficient service. Right? And so if you don’t, if you can identify really those things in what makes exceptional customer service, then it’s going to be a challenge.

Tony Winyard 39:31
What are your general thoughts about exceeding expectations?

Adam Sinkus 39:35
So I think exceeding expectations is really in my mind twofold. Right? So, one, it’s about setting proper expectations in the beginning, right, so, from, from my businesses, it’s really about understanding needs, and then setting realistic expectations at all. customers, we’re not going to make a 400% gain on this, that’s just not realistic, right? And that’s okay. But if we can get to that 400% gain when I set it to, you know, 200 or 300% gain because I knew I could make that. That’s where it becomes exceptional customer service. And in that’s where you start exceeding those expectations. It is really when it comes down to did I set effective goals in the first place, because I think if we sell the pie in the sky, I can do anything I can, give you any result you’re looking for. The only feeling where you’re going to even remotely win that is by meeting their expectations. You’re never ever going to exceed expectations in that arena

Tony Winyard 41:03
If people want to find out more about you where would they go?

Adam Sinkus 41:06
So best place to find me is LinkedIn.

Tony Winyard 41:11
I am on there every day send me direct messages connect with me Follow me. #AdamBomb is you’ll where you can find all of my post information on LinkedIn. It’s like truth bomb or thought bomb. But, Adam. You can also find me on Twitter at Adam Sinkus and my digital marketing company. Elevare agency.

Do you have a quotation you particularly like Adam?

Adam Sinkus 42:04
Um, gosh, there’s so many quotations. I am a quote junkie. It really depends on the day, but one of my favourites is Steve Jobs. “Why hire smart people and then tell them what to do”. That’s something that’s always resonated with me as being a leader in teaching leadership is we got an interest in empowering people to do best for us.

Tony Winyard 42:41
It’s been a pleasure speaking with you., Best of luck for the future with all that you’re doing. It sounds like there’s a lot of things that you’re doing so yeah, best of luck.

Adam Sinkus 42:49
Oh, thank you so much. I definitely appreciate you having me on. Thank you.

Tony Winyard 42:58
Next week is Episode 73 with Joel Ong who’s based in Singapore and we find out a lot more about video, and specifically video marketing and YouTube, etc. And what can we learn from Bruce Lee in these areas? So that’s next week’s episode with Joel Ong. I hope you’ve enjoyed this week’s show. please do leave a review for us, share the podcast, subscribe, all those things and hope you have a great week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai