EE079 – Mollie McGlocklin

Tony Winyard – Health, Breathing, Sleeping, Mindset & Movement Coach

Mollie McGlocklin runs a company named “Sleep is a skill” and in this episode we discover the importance of sleep not just in quantity but also quality and the huge difference it can make to your life physically, emotionally and cognitively.

There are a lot of topics covered including Sleep, Circadian Rhythms, Tracking, Behavioral Change, and Accountability.

  • How can the time that we eat, move, adjust our thermostats, see the sun, see darkness, connect with others, etc. — impact our sleep & our health?
  • What’s glymphatic drainage, how can sleep support it, and why do we care?
  • Why are sleep deprivation rates at an all-time high, and what can we do about it?
  • What are some of the newest sleep gadgets on the market and how to we sift through the noise between what works and what is just fancy marketing?
  • What is your circadian rhythm & why is it important for your sleep, health, mood, and waistline?
  • What is social jet lag and what can we do to prevent it?
  • What is HRV and how does that data help us with sleep?


Mollie’s Favorite Quotes:
  • How you do anything, is how you do anything
  • What gets measured, gets managed
Recommended Books:

Exceeding Expectations links:

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(Transcriptions are done using through a system of artificial intelligence; so every episode contains a few mistakes as AI is not yet perfect for transcribing the human voice. However, it is a very time-consuming process to go through each transcript and correct all the errors. So please accept my apologies for the number of errors, but I hope that these transcripts are useful to you.)

Tony Winyard 0:00
Exceeding expectations Episode 79. Today’s episode we’re going to dispel a lot of the myths about sleep and the macho attitude a lot of people seem to have about thinking they only need four or five hours sleep and they can function properly. Well, our guest is Mollie McGlocklin, who is a bit of an expert, and we’re going to find out really about the importance of sleep and how it can really help you cognitively and physically and in many other ways as well. This is the podcast where we aim to give you ideas on how you can… usually it’s about exceeding your customers expectations. This week’s episode is more about exceeding your own expectations because by getting better sleep, you can perform much better. So that’s this week’s episode of exceeding expectations. If you do like this, please share it with someone, especially anyone you know who doesn’t get great sleep. Either because they just work too much or because maybe they’ve got insomnia or whatever the issue may be, they may find some of the information interesting. Please do subscribe and leave a review and hope you enjoy this week’s show. exceeding expectations. My guest today is Mollie McGlocklin. How are you Mollie?

Mollie McGlocklin 1:19
I am Great. Thank you so much for having me here.

Tony Winyard 1:23
As we spoke before we started recording. I’m really looking forward to this episode. Where is it we find you right now?

Mollie McGlocklin 1:30
Oh, so right now; my boyfriend and I travel full time. We’ve been travelling for the last three years. And so we had been largely in Southeast Asia. But now we’re back in the States. And we’re going back and forth between New York and right now we’re in Vegas, because we’re doing some trainings out here.

Tony Winyard 1:48
Okay, and where is it your actually from?

Mollie McGlocklin 1:50
I was born in Maine, and then but I’ve been in New York for about a little over a decade.

Tony Winyard 2:00
And you’re somewhat of an expert on sleep aren’t you?

Mollie McGlocklin 2:03
Yes. Which came all from really scratching my own itch around the fact that I was for many, many years, not the best sleeper I didn’t think it was much of a problem until I went through my own period of insomnia. And with that, it really had me confront what wasn’t working around my sleep. And it was a real kind of draw a line in the sand moment around my life of what what I could stand for what what what I needed to bring in to make a difference for you know, not only my sleep, but my health and well being and found that by going kind of deep down the rabbit hole around certian, rhythm, optimization, chronobiology and understanding you know, really how I was running my life was really confusing my body on a on a cellular level and how to kind of bring things back into a level of homeostasis and just became so obsessed with it. This topic that I started working with other people on it that were struggling with their sleep purely from an empathetic standpoint of knowing how challenging that can be when you’re just, you know, Night after night laying there and just having such difficulty and or, you know, waking up each day and dragging. So it began sort of organically and then it built into this full company sleep as a skill.

Tony Winyard 3:25
There’s a lot of people go through the issues that you mentioned, but never do find out the importance of sleep. What was it that actually helped you to realise that there was a lot more going on that you weren’t aware of?

Mollie McGlocklin 3:40
Well, so mine really came out of my own sense of fear around this what was going to be next for me with this problem with my sleep because this happened actually, in the very beginning while we’re travelling, and we were in Europe at the time and ended up we’d hopped from we were over in Croatia, when The worst of it was and I went to the doctors there and Google Translate, you know, with the you know, the doctors I went to was speaking English and they gave me basically their version of Ambien and it was this wake up call moment for me of this can be my life, you know, this can’t be the direction that I’m going to go they’re going to have to take something to be able to fall asleep. And so so I was very scared about that because you know, and these things often don’t come out of a vacuum I was you know, really stressed out you know, kind of entrepreneur burning the candle at both ends. And that’s, you know, kind of what led to this this period of my life. But so from that place, it was like I got, I got to figure this out, was really how it was occurring for me so I went deep and I actually end up doing so many things that didn’t work. You know, went down the rabbit hole and tried. I learned something with every every one of them, you know, would try hypnosis would try this supplement which I you know, this Breathing practice, we tried this, this is you know, all the things. And what I ended up discovering was that, you know, while there were benefits to some of them, some of them just weren’t there in a different field, a different category of what would really move the needle. And what I became really fascinated with was this whole concept of circadian rhythm and treatment. And what that’s looking at is just how, how to strengthen our circadian rhythm and how many of us in our modern society really have a weakened circadian rhythm where it’s not as robust as arguably it would have been thousands of years ago, during hunter gatherer days were so linked up with the rhythms of nature, sunrise and sunset, I mean, I was coming from a time of basically going to bed as the sun was rising pretty much for so many years. And you know, it just by living like that, what that was doing to my health and well being. So when discovering, you know, that there’s this whole kind of framework of things that can make it difference with your circadian rhythm that was totally fascinating to me. And in order to bring those things in, you really have to change your days, then that was my experience. So, um, you know, we can get into more of the specifics, but you know, some of these things have you live life very differently than the average, the average person in urban environment. So, it was so interesting and it changed you know, the course of my life. So with that, it I couldn’t stop talking about it basically.

Tony Winyard 6:34
I’m just wondering when you were describing some of the insomnia and so on. So often, it seems to me a lot of people fall into one of two camps. There’s one camp where it’s just pure insomnia and even though they may be in bed for a long time, they just can’t sleep for various reasons. And then there’s the other macho camp who “I only need four hours of sleep. I’m fine. People who talk about you need seven, that’s rubbish”. And so on. Was it one of those two for you?

Mollie McGlocklin 7:00
Yeah, so for me, it was mind kind of came about because I was also adding jetlag into the mix, which I had never really travelled a whole heck of a lot before this period of my life. So by scrolling, not only was I living off of the kind of normal rhythms of nature, by myself, just based on how I was organising my days for so many years, then when I started throwing in the jetlag into it with this level of stress and anxiety, it was just this extended period that it really lasted about three months was the worst of it. where, you know, it would just be real stretches of like multiple, multiple days in a row of very, very little sleep. And it was very hard and you know it. When you’re, when you’re running on the kind of level of sleep deprivation, you like, life just doesn’t really work. It just doesn’t work and you know, The we can get into the weeds too. Or maybe that’s like a part two, but you know, some of the, the impact that that has on both your physiology and your psychology is really profound. And, you know, so my levels of anxiety that were already heightened even went up during that period of, and I think many of us can relate to this, you know, when we just had a string of nights in a row where we just didn’t get the best sleep, you know, even if you’re not as dramatic of a case as mine was, but you know, just like you’ve been really rundown and your or your new parent or what have you. And during those periods, often, things that occur in our life that wouldn’t have been that big of a deal are amplified. And so that’s really what we see with a lot of people to a lot of people that come to sleep as a skill. They are at their wit’s end because they’re no longer being able to manage their sleep in a way that’s working for them and then just life. The life management is not working because they’re so exhausted and stressed.

Tony Winyard 9:01
So when you started making those changes, and at first, they weren’t really working, what was it that really started working? What changed them within you when those things started to work?

Mollie McGlocklin 9:12
Well, I think for me, was actually at this point where I was dealing with more sleep anxiety where I was, so I’d had so many nights in a row where I just wasn’t sleeping that I began to link up the nights with, with anxious thoughts, you know, or just like, Oh, my God, I can’t face another night and just laying there again. And so it’s really starting to, and one of the things that we’re really trying to cultivate for getting great sleep is being mindful of those kind of hormonal shifts. So, you know, traditionally cortisol will rise in the morning hours and then you know, help which is really important and help bring you through the day and give you all the energy that you need and then it will start to subside in the Evening, and then it will shift over to this melatonin production. And unfortunately, my you know, that system was all out of whack for me and the cortisol elements will be rising in the evening. So I would, you know, certainly doesn’t set up an environment for great sleep when you are getting very stressed to go to bed you know, because certainly sleep is a is a process that involves that parasympathetic response and that ability to calm our bodies and and know that it’s okay and that you’re safe and and all of that. So for me, it was it was first dealing with that sleep anxiety. And then so what that really took was by taking the pressure off of the nights, and instead looking at this element of circadian rhythm optimization, which really involves the days that suddenly shifted the pressure for me around, okay, I got to get the night’s right and You know, I have to do all these particular things, you know, you’ll see articles out there that are like sleep hygiene and the top 10 tips and all this, which are wonderful and for me wasn’t doing the trick because it was all often very evening focused. And so instead by shifting the attention to really also handling the things that are working in your life during the days, so taking care of those worries during the daylight hours, but also you know, a lot of physiological elements where you’re getting yourself outside because one of the top things that will make a difference for your circadian rhythm is light and really a strong relationship to light. So getting outside first thing in the morning and getting sunlight you know, basically within your eyes first thing in the morning why that’s important. It sounds you know, strange for a lot of people, but what’s the connection between that is that your eyes the optic nerve is connected to your super cosmic nucleus and what that is, is Just a long word for your master clock within your body, and that’s the thing that helps keep everything running kind of like clockwork. And it communicates with all of the other little clocks within ourselves throughout our whole body, and they’re looking to stay on time. And, you know, if you’re looking for cues, and that light is one cue, so that actually had me getting outside more ahead me like, you know, moving my body getting, you know, back on to the rhythms of nature. And I became just so cognizant of both when the sun rose and then as the sun was setting so those are two key times that helped you know, as signals for the body to know one is it time to suppress melatonin in the morning and for hunter gatherer period for thousands of years, that’s kind of what that serve does. And then to when the sun would set that that would be another cue that okay so we can begin to you know, this production of cortisol and then be slowly beginning to shift over to melatonin, you know, the hormone of darkness basically. So you know, just even that light, that’s one element of it, and that’s what I started to bring in. But then there’s also temperature, there’s movement, timing, there’s meal timing, there’s thought timing, there’s all kinds of things that he, by shifting that over to really changing my life from that perspective, gave me a whole different access point to then being able to kind of loosen the, the Chinese finger trap that I had going on with my sleep of like trying to force it. And suddenly by, you know, kind of letting that pressure off, you know, you can remove your fingers from the Chinese finger trap. And it really was a game changer for me.

Tony Winyard 13:45
So when when you started making those changes, and things started working, and I guess you just started feeling so much better. Was it a case of you just never felt so good?…

Mollie McGlocklin 13:55
Yes. So when that started because, you know, I had had this whole issue image of what life is going to be like oh, we’re all travelling It’s gonna be so amazing and then when it didn’t go that way you know there was a real concern for me of like am I going to be the type of person that can even travel Am I going to need to you know Am I going to have so many rules and things around you know how to maintain health and well being and that just didn’t align with the identity of the person that I wanted to become so I really wanted to bring about you know, great health and well being but also not be dependent on a bunch of, you know, things along the way, whether it’s, you know, supplements these gadgets or gizmos or any of that stuff. So so what I ended up doing was you know, going deep on this and then when I started to have the experience of Oh my god, okay, I can sleep again like this is miraculous. It sounds so crazy, but it that’s really how it felt and it felt like Oh, my, what the life that I want to create, I can actually do it again. It’s so it felt very like a like an O Buddha clouds parting moment by by being able to restore that balance. And, you know, certainly didn’t happen overnight, but when it as it slowly started coming back and kind of regaining that connection to, you know, just a normal sleep pattern that was phenomenal. And then I got to take it to the next level and then I got to bring in all of these, you know, sleep trackers, and you know, then test out some of these things that could make a difference. I don’t, you know, I really advocate not being attached to any of these things, you know, whether it’s like red lights, or you know, supplements or any of these, you know, sort of things that we can bring in. However, I think it can be powerful to experiment and see what can make a difference and certainly the awareness by bringing basically every client I work with, I have them have, you know, some sort of sleep tracker and you know, with Briggs That in that made such a difference for me to, you know, I, when I sleep I’m like, covered and have so many different types of trackers, it’s very funny and, but by bringing in that level of kind of biofeedback, I began to know the things that would make a difference with my sleep. And what it ended up feeling like is now on the other side of this is I have this experience where my sleep is so count honourable where I know that I can wake up with, you know, great HRV Usually, I can wake up with you know, which is just a sign of heart rate variability. And I can wake up pretty reliably with fantastic, you know, sleep scores, which the old me would have had no clue how to do. And so it feels as if there’s some sort of just like you’ve figured something out that so many people, unfortunately our, you know, in the conversation of and then and you see the difference, you know Like, just but so for me, it’s now becoming addicted to feeling that level of energy on a regular basis. And it’s just been really kind of life changing, and to get to see other clients that have the same experience. I think it’s a really exciting time because then this can start to cultivate intention to what if we were to all do these some of these things that could make a difference, and then all of us as a society to wake up feeling fantastic, you know, really, how it was designed on a regular basis? How could you know life look from that perspective?

Tony Winyard 17:40
One of the main reasons I invited you onto the show was because I think for a lot of people, their expectations of their sleep or their health, they just don’t expect to have a good night’s sleep and they just think it’s normal to wake up not feeling great and having to have lots of coffee in order to just function and that’s not an expectation that should be normal. And I think we very much can exceed our own expectations in many ways and that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on because I think some of the information you’re going to give here will certainly help people in so many ways if they take heed and listen some of the some of the things you’re saying,

Mollie McGlocklin 18:22
Yeah, and you know, even what you’re pointing to with coffee, and you know, I love because your audience is looking to do big things. And, you know, I still get a coffee is like one of my favourite, you know, elements of my day, and yet, it’s something that we really even want to be cognizant of. There’s something called crono pharmacology, and it’s looking at how the, it’s really the science of time as it relates to, you know, any type of drug really, that we’re bringing into our body. And you can even put coffee in very much into that category and coffee really does have an effect. Depending on, you know, the timing and dosage that you are bringing in and impacts levels of adenosine in your brain, which relates to your body’s ability to feel that regular sleep pressure that we’re designed to have in the evenings. And coffee has the ability very well to repress those adenosine receptors and to make you feel like you are more awake than you really actually are. So even things on that level can be game changers for people as they start to experiment more and just take seriously more, you know, all the behaviours that we’re engaging in and from the lens of how is this impacting my sleep one of arguably the most important things that we do each day to maintain our health and well being.

Tony Winyard 19:49
So at the moment, how is it that you help people is it on a one to one coaching basis? Is it speaking from stage one, what is it that you do?

Mollie McGlocklin 19:56
So i have Sleep As A Skill. We have a one on one small groups. And now we’re launching an online training course, which is, you know, more interactive. So we bring in basically different sleep bots. So each morning people will debrief how their sleep went from the night before, and then also be setting up their days powerfully from perspective of all of these practices or principles that we’re bringing in around circadian rhythm optimization. So, they’re setting up from this vantage point of how to get great sleep, but by setting the stage more to allow sleep to come more naturally versus trying to force it or just thinking about it in the evenings. So, so we do that, and then we also are launching a podcast. So to then further educate on you know, some of these topics that often people aren’t even cognizant that could be making a difference with their sleep and can end up being such a game changer. And then also working to develop some products for the consumer level around particularly run red lights, one of the things we’re focusing on right now. Because light is one of the main factors in circadian rhythm optimization, so this red light element I really foresee as being a big game changer, going forward as the future of that more and more households will bring this in, to be able to, totally on DB, we’re not looking for people to, go to bed, obviously, as a sunset, thats a little unrealistic, but then how to extend our days, which is really what we started doing post Edison. How can we extend our days but not impact the levels of melatonin that we’re producing each night and then, consequently which many people we’ve all unknowingly done and a lot of ways for many, many years, and then kind of suffering the consequences of feeling, not as rested or rejuvenated the next morning

Tony Winyard 21:59
For people listening to this who are maybe not so well versed in all of this and they’re not really sure what Melatonin is, and they’re not really sure what you’re talking about when you’re referring to red light. So can you go a bit deeper and explain that?

Mollie McGlocklin 22:10
Sure. Melatonin is known as the hormone of darkness which basically regulates our sleep wake cycles. And you know, it’s something that’s a big focus that we’re looking at what the circadian rhythm entrainment is how to naturally produce levels of melatonin ourselves and reliably at particular times each night. So, you know, you’ll it’s likely that people have begun to see over the past few years, melatonin supplements out and about and which is great in that it’s raising the awareness around this really important hormone, but it’s also a hormone and you know, so there is beginning to raise some questions of have we been a little too you know, loosey goosey with just kind of taking This external element and give me two kids and, you know, whereas could we instead set up life in a way where we are reliably kind of like when you were younger, and you know, you would get tired at a particular time each night and sort of like, you know, raise your hands over your head and beyond. And that’s just kind of what you did. And you’d go to bed at around the same time every night. That’s really what we’re looking to do with adults, and to bring them as levels of consistency, but also external cues to help guide that process. And red light is another one of those external cues that we can bring in why red light is so powerful is kind of a longer conversation. But the short takeaway of it is that every within full spectrum light from the sun, you you’ll get elements of blue light, but it’s always coupled with red light. So that red light, you want to make sure that you’re being cognizant of If you are having blue light that it’s always paired with that red light, because that’s how you’d always have gotten it in nature. And it’s more of the healing light property and it has infrared elements in it and it can be actually helpful with pain. You know, it’s a common practice to within doctor’s offices like psoriasis, right and so growing for years, I would get red light therapy and had no idea that it was connected with sleep, but it was, you know, part of fellow’s domain of photo therapy. So So utilising this can be really great for also pain management. A lot of people I work with have difficulties managing their pain is that actually their experiences that it seems to get worse or they’re they notice it more at night and that can keep them awake. So bringing this in can make a difference, but also just you know, for living a life in the 21st century where no longer does in the past when the sun would set you know, it was kind of party over for a long time for many years. Thousands of years such as how it was because maybe beyond like a bonfire or something, you were shortly thereafter going to bed. But now we’ve extended the process artificially by bringing in full light. And so red light can be a cool, way too dense to still be able to do things, you know, still, whatever if you want to watch Game of Thrones or something great. And you can do that. But now you’re being kind of doused in a red light versus all of this blue and elements of green light. And those things can really throw off melatonin production and we can measure the difference in our, you know, sleep trackers and what have you and see what that does to you know, on a regular basis to your sleep quality.

Tony Winyard 25:51
And for people who are listening, thinking more, how do I put on a red light every night? So what are your common tips that you give to people?

Mollie McGlocklin 25:59
Basically with the red light, you can do candlelight, too, which seems to be a harder sell for people. You know, so because candlelight is a low kind of Lux, off put and it has, it’s more coupled with red light. You could if you’re really just like, Listen, I’m not doing that I’m not doing any of these things. Then on the next option for you could be incandescent lights, which are kind of like those old Edison bulbs. And those have a bit more percentage of red light in them. And so and that’s kind of also there’s a big theory that it’s, there’s a there’s a question of is it interesting? Isn’t it interesting that our sleep deprivation rates have really, you know, exponentially rose, after we kind of shifted over to these more led based lights as a, you know, on a global society that these they’re seeing To be a correlation, of course, with all the smart tech and what have you and all the blue light that comes out of there. So basically, you get really skilled in what types of lights that you’re putting around you. So you could go straight to the red lights. And you know, some people even do Phillips, you know, Hughes, because they can, you know, even from their phone, change the colour, or you could just, you know, go on Amazon or what have you and get some of these just basic red lights. And it is I really challenge people to do that, because you feel the difference when that is on, you know, when I’ll have people come over to our place and put on, you know, red lights or what have you. It’s like, some of the feedback is Oh my god, I can’t believe I’m so tired right now. It’ll be like, you know, whatever. 930 or something. And it’s hysterical, because that’s really how it was designed in a lot of ways. Yeah, because it was night and it was time to be tired. And we’ve just deviated from that a bit.

Tony Winyard 28:00
I have a thing it’s called a smart bulb, and it’s got a little remote control and I can just change the colour of the bulb, whenever I want to.

Mollie McGlocklin 28:09
Oh, yeah, totally. Yep,

Tony Winyard 28:12
I just have that in my bedroom and in the living room, and then the last couple of hours before I’m going to bed, I just change it to a red light.

Mollie McGlocklin 28:20
Yes, exactly. You can really automate this process. And, you know, I think that’s what we’re going to see more of, to be honest, in the future. I think a lot of there’s this whole emerging industry of building biology and in in that it’s looking to have your environment support your biology. And I think a lot of it is going to point to how to align with your circadian rhythm and that has to do with temperature to temperature below light. That’s one of the second big impactors for circadian rhythm and so, having a home that automatically lowers the temperature in the evening, which is really how things would have been before we kind of all became like zoo animals. And inside all the time, you know, in the past, we’d be outside and the sun would go down and it was cold. And that would be a cue to your body that it’s time to go to bed. And then when you’d be waking the sun would be coming up in the whole earth would be you know the earth around you, and that your vicinity would be warming up. So that was another sign to get up and to be active and to do all the things that you need to do in the day. So that’s another element in our building biology that we can, you know, turn up our thermostat during the days and then that would kind of mimic how things were, because we forget that our bodies are still really, this is very new, you know, the span of the amount of times that you know, humans have been on this earth to be living like this is very odd. So we want to try to bring things back to how it was as much as we can.

Tony Winyard 29:45
And I think a lot of people do tend to have their bedrooms way too warm and they don’t realise

Mollie McGlocklin 29:51
Yes, oh my god and then when they get somebody sleep trackers and then they see the difference that it can make in their sleep, you know, quality and quantity When they just lower the temperature a bit, I mean, even that can be such a game changer as you compound that over, you know, there’s 65 nights a year, what have you, it’s just it’s a different life.

Tony Winyard 30:12
And one of the things you mentioned about 10 minutes ago, so you were talking about HRV for anyone maybe not familiar with it, do you want to explain what HRV is?

Mollie McGlocklin 30:21
Sure, yeah. HRV is Heart Rate Variability. And it’s a really fascinating marker, or, you know, kind of biometric indicator of how your nervous system is functioning. And it’s basically the beats between between the heart Your heart rate, so it’s very much related to your heart rate numbers. So you actually, it’s very confusing metric. And so it takes, you know, that can be its own podcast, really, but essentially, oddly, you kind of want to cultivate a dynamic and kind of wild looking set of numbers because that’s kind of pointing to your body’s ability to dynamically and quickly you know, kind of deal with things that are coming up. So for instance, things that could impact HRV or as much as you know, stress can impact it. But also the types of food that you’re having the environment that you’re in the air quality, you know, just the amount of workouts that you’re doing. It’s a really kind of temperamental metric, but it can be so eye opening and then you can really get a great sense of how often you’re kind of hanging out in this fight or flight response. And, and, you know, some of the things that you are behaviorally partaking in are they serving you. So, and you have to get really kind of versed in this because, you know, great athletes will this has been, you know, for in the elite athlete realm, they’ve been using utilising HRV for much longer than the average population and They also know that they can stress some of their numbers and they can tank them a bit, you know, bring them down, which is in for HRV typically tends to be a bit more of, you know, a sign that you need to recover a bit. And they’ll do that strategically by really exerting themselves, but if you know, strong workouts, and then but they’ll build in the time to recover properly, to bring that number back up. And

Tony Winyard 32:27
That’s so important

Mollie McGlocklin 32:30
That’s the thing and that’s one of the things I think is so powerful about some of these different kind of biofeedback elements that often I think so many of us are so disconnected and not tuned into our bodies in a way where we’re maybe being able to read when we’re just so worn out in this kind of burnout culture that so many people talk about. Whereas when you have some of these external measurements, you’re it’s like telling you it’s hitting you over the head with these numbers that I mean, listen, you need like a chill day. You got it. Bring it back, you know, maybe do some nice recovery, maybe a nice warm bath, maybe some of these things that you might seem like us, come on. But when you see those numbers, that’s why athletes take recovery so seriously, because then they know that they can’t do the big things that they want to do, you know, the next day or what have you, if you don’t take that time? And I think is, you know, particularly with your audience, and people that are, you know, just have big goals, and we can often forget this really important element.

Tony Winyard 33:31
And it’s such a good indication of when you may have sickness that may be coming or you know, when you should just totally not do anything, because you’re probably going to over exert yourself if you do,

Mollie McGlocklin 33:43
Yes, 100% I think that’s such a big call out and it’s can be fascinating how you not only will your heart rate variability numbers, you know, pretty much tank, but your heart rate will often go up when you’re getting sick, your body type picture will often go up and respiratory rate can change from Stevie and can deviate a bit. So you can really get a sense from some of these trackers of where you’re at, and then do all the work that you need to do to bring things back to a level of homeostasis.

Tony Winyard 34:16
So what sort of gadgets have you been working with, with your clients?

Mollie McGlocklin 34:20
I actually have everyone usually start with the Oura ring, I found that one to be particularly tailored just to sleep. And then because it has those different metrics they have, they do a great job with their, their apps to be able to show kind of trends. And then if you’re really kind of getting off course, also, on my end, I get to have like, an ESPN readout pretty much of what you know my different clients where their sleep is at and then I get to see if it’s really kind of going off track and then we can help kind of course correct Faster, or if they’re doing fantastic, then we get to kind of celebrate and, you know, encourage that behaviour, because a lot of this is behavioural change elements. And we’re looking to change a lot of behaviours. You know, which takes time and can take, you know, you want to also notice when things are going well, and you know, applaud ourselves for that.

Tony Winyard 35:22
What would you say is the most common problem people have when it comes to sleeping?

Mollie McGlocklin 35:30
That’s a great question. So one of the most common problems that the people that are coming my way is often the sense of like, I can’t turn off my brain. And that’s so many things coming up or realm of like, anticipatory anxiety of, you know, it can be great things too. That’s the other weird thing about it. Like it can be opportunities. You’ve got this promotion, and now people expect things of you or whatever. And you know, just all that forever, unending Kind of to do lists of the following day, this kind of inability to stop the swirling of or the rumination or kind of playing back how the day went today and planning for tomorrow. And, you know, real difficulty of how to interrupt that.

Tony Winyard 36:23
Do you encourage meditation or anything like that?

Mollie McGlocklin 36:28
Oh, yeah. So, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of things that we go through to help guide the body back to, you know, true levels of relaxation, also just reminding ourselves that we do have the ability to shift over into that parasympathetic state. And, but what a lot of it that we do is also have people deal with some of the things that they haven’t dealt with during the day that is impacting their kind of sense of calm and kindness. training the brain that we’re not the type of person that’s just leaving, you know, our life to be thought about thoughtfully at night in the bedroom, you know, instead, we actually are carving out certain blocks in the daytime to deal with some of these things strategically that have been keeping us awake persistently, you know, so then we start to, you know, re re align our connection with with our selves so that we know that we’re someone that will handle these things and we can get them out of our brain and we do different things whether it’s like audio transcriptions, you can use products like or you know different things where you just speak out what’s in your head and get it out and it will auto transcribe it and then you know, it’s kind of like by taking even that one action it’s training yourself to know that you’re not just gonna sit in the, in the in the upset of it.

Tony Winyard 37:55
Some people are under the misconception that they think “I will get seven hours sleep” And yet they still feel bad, that they don’t understand the difference between quantity and quality of sleep.

Mollie McGlocklin 38:05
Right? Yes, absolutely. There’s a big, big difference there. Yeah, so what’s one of the things that we’re looking to cultivate is to get that sleep quality that is rare in these in this day and age?

Tony Winyard 38:21
So what do you think if someone is waking up most mornings, and they feel they’ve had a good sufficient number of hours of sleep, but they’re still feeling bad, what what would you suggest they do?

Mollie McGlocklin 38:37
It’s a whole protocol, really. So we’re looking to bring about kind of realigning our bodily hormones. So bringing about, the ability to ensure that our melatonin levels are at the right levels that we’re looking to bring about at consistent times. This level of consistency is so important. You know, getting connected to like management getting to the to temperature management meal timing, even ensuring that our meals or during particular days people are shocked to the difference that can make in your sleep quality. You know, bringing about heat therapy, cold therapy, all of those things just can really really transform your the quality of your sleep, and it takes time. But when you’re committed, it can be a game changer.

Tony Winyard 39:25
For people who may be not familiar with the phrase social jetlag, what that’s all about?

Mollie McGlocklin 39:32
Social jetlag is essentially something that we’ve all kind of created for ourselves, where we are deviating off of our standard, you know, sleep patterns, so maybe say five days a week, you are going to bed at whatever 9pm but then the weekend rolls around and you start going to bed at one o’clock in the morning, what you’ve done is created for yourself, your own self created jetlag And so with that, then you’re spending a lot of your future days. Trying to rely on that. And that also creates metabolic jetlag, because now you’re eating at different times too. And you have little clocks, basically, even within your digestive system that are getting confused on what time it is when we do this. So it becomes really problematic.

Tony Winyard 40:16
What does the phrase exceeding expectations mean to you Mollie?

Mollie McGlocklin 40:21
So I think that is a wonderful way of a lens to look at life with. And so for me, exceeding expectations is about, no limit living, taking things up to the unexpected. And, I think that sleep is one of the best means by which to do that. And because right now, if you’re someone that can manage your sleep at this kind of extraordinary level, you are primed to be able to exceed expectations reliably and take on your day in a way that’s rare now.

Tony Winyard 40:55
If people want to find out more about you and how you can maybe help them wherever they go to

Mollie McGlocklin 41:00
Yes, so they would go to We have our podcast lunching. We have a weekly newsletter called “Mollies Monday obsession”. So every Monday I’ll share all the things I’m obsessing about in the world of sleep. And we will, take it from there. It’s really a cool ride.

Tony Winyard 41:19
Do you have a quote or a book that you recommend?

Mollie McGlocklin 41:24
My quote is, “How you do anything is how you do everything”. And I think that this just rings so true. And then the book that I recommend is called “The Circadian Code”. I think it’s a great place to start to get connected to really how shifting from this into this paradigm of circadian rhythm optimization. Really just actually change and amplify your full life as a whole.

Tony Winyard 41:49
Mollie, it’s been a real pleasure. I think we’re definitely gonna have you back for part two, because there’s so many areas you didn’t get a chance to cover. I would love that.

Mollie McGlocklin 41:58
Yes, absolutely. Please do.

Tony Winyard 42:02
Thank you for sharing so much important information because I think it can make such a difference for so many people listening.

Mollie McGlocklin 42:06
Yes, thank you. And thank you so much for having me. I really love what you’re doing with your audience, and you know what you’re kind of standing for. And I’m so grateful to be a part of it.

Tony Winyard 42:23
Next week is Episode 80 with Phil Jones. He’s an estate agent and trains estate agents. So we’re going to find out about how they can exceed their clients expectations. And as we all know, there’s a lot of room to exceed expectations from estate agents, they don’t always have the best of reputations. So we’re going to find out from Phil, how that can be changed. That’s next week. Hope you enjoy this week’s show. Please do share it with someone who you thought would really benefit from some of the issues discussed. do leave us a review and please subscribe, and hope you have a good week.

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