Kathleen Trotter

91 – Kathleen Trotter

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[00:00:00] Tony Winyard: Habits & Health episode 91.

[00:00:15] Tony Winyard: Welcome to another edition of Habits & health. My guest today, Kathleen Trotter. She’s a fitness expert, a media personality, personal trainer writer, and author of the book called finding your fit a compassionate trainers guide to making fitness a lifelong habit.

And your fittest future self. So she’s all about making choices today for a healthier, happier fitter future you. And she’s been a personal trainer and fitness expert for about 20 years. And in this. Episode, we talk about many things, about fresh starts, setting up fail safe systems. about ultimate goals, mindset.

and a lot around behavior as well. So that’s today’s episode with Kathleen Trotter. If you know anyone who would get some value from some of the real nuggets that Kathleen shares, please do share the episode with them and hope you enjoy this weeks show.

Habits & Health, My guest today, Kathleen Trotter. How are you, Kathleen?

[00:01:19] Kathleen Trotter: I’m thrilled to be here. I love Habits and I love health, so

[00:01:23] Tony Winyard: I think I, I get a feeling it’s gonna be a good episode. I’m just wondering where, I’m presuming you’re in the States, but where,

[00:01:29] Kathleen Trotter: no, I’m actually in Canada. I’m in Toronto, Canada,

[00:01:32] Tony Winyard: I would I, forgive me for saying that you’re in the States,

[00:01:36] Kathleen Trotter: how dare you. no. . I am close. I do love my. the Americans and, I miss going to New York and Covid. I haven’t been traveling and oh my goodness, I used to do so many courses in the states, so I have to start doing that again. I was just thinking about Habits of, I’ve created, unfortunately, By default some Habits of being a very, a homebody, right?

And I used to have these Habits of travel and taking courses all around the globe. I’d go to London, England, I’d go to New York, I’d go to California. and I think one of the things that Covid did for a lot of us is it reset our Habits by default. And I’m a big believer in setting Habits by design.

Cause I think that when you have that default and it just happens and like slide into different things, sometimes they work for you, but often they. so a lot of what I do with my clients is just say, Okay, let’s design the Habits and the life that we want with intention. and so anyway, I’m saying this out now mainly cuz I really believe in accountability.

So if I say to you, I’m gonna start traveling, I’m gonna start going to different courses, I think it’s one of the ways that it’ll happen.

Well, I mean, there’s a number of things I wanna explore in what you just said, and we are gonna get into to what you do and how you help people and all the rest of it. but something you just said, I’m now wondering because it’s clear that behavior and Habits is like, is really important to you.

[00:02:49] Tony Winyard: So when did you, was there a revelation at some point when you realized this is the difference maker or what happened?

[00:02:56] Layers of the onion

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I really think that learning, happens very slowly and over time, it’s at sort of layers of the onion. or, the idea that it’s a final coin that makes you a millionaire, but all the other coins don’t matter. Like that final point doesn’t matter without the all the other coins. And I think that’s what’s learning, right?

[00:03:11] Kathleen Trotter: Like you, you have a revelation and then you forget the revelation and then you have to learn it again. And so I’ve had a really, 20 years in the fitness field. The first half of my life, I was very unfit. I hated being in my own body. I was, I didn’t exercise. So it has been a gradual journey for me to change my Habits and to become fitter and then to help other people change them.

So I don’t think that there was one moment, but I do think it’s an accumulation of moments as things like reading books like James Clears Atomic Habits. Reading Carol Dweck, Growth Mindset, reading, just listening to really interesting podcasts like Tim Ferris and the one thing which talks a lot about Habits, and just really appreciating that knowledge.

it’s not enough. Like I love the Derek Silvers quote. If knowledge was enough, we’d all be billionaires with six pack abs. Um, I think the thing with health is a lot of it is fairly, captain obvious, you drink more water, get more sleep, move your body a bit more. But it doesn’t mean that just because it’s captain obvious to know it, connecting the dots between knowing and doing it, it’s a very hard thing.

[00:04:09] Kathleen Trotter: And I think that because I spent the first half of my life really wanting to be healthy and fit, like I was overweight and I hate, I hated being overweight. I didn’t wanna be, Quote unquote lazy. I, but I just, I couldn’t find a way to make myself be the person I wanted to be. And so through the process of understanding how I can get rid of the shame and get rid of the, I can’t do this attitude and get more onto the okay, little by little I can learn, step by step, that growth mindset, a lot of therapy, and just a lot of time and patience.

I think I’ve just, I’ve learned through doing and through helping people. I don’t know. There’s this cognitive, distortion that, I think it’s called the fluence effect. Maybe I could be getting that wrong. I’ll look it up and I’ll, So you can put it in the show notes. but it’s just this idea that the easier something looks from the outside, like then the more likely you, you don’t deconstruct it and figure out how to do it.

You just think that looks like it should be easy. So then it obviously is easy. And so many of those things,they’re, they are simple, but they’re definitely not easy to do. And so I think health and wellness is one of those things. People are like, I don’t wanna hire a coach, or I don’t need to hire a coach.

I know what I should be doing, but they don’t do it. and then, you gotta step back and you can think, Okay, How, where has this mindset gotten me so far? Oh, I’ve been wanting to, get healthy for 20 years and I haven’t done it. Okay. So maybe I need an outside help, or maybe I’m going about it the wrong way, or maybe I know all the right information, but I don’t understand how to implement it.

Or maybe I’m not giving myself enough time to, actually really create the habit. Like a habit isn’t created over a day. It’s repetition. So, I dunno. Did any of that answer your question?

[00:05:39] Tony Winyard: Yeah. and following on from something you just said there. There’s a number of books on Habits. II think I’ve read, I’m quite, at least 20 books on Habits, and there’s a number of them that talk about if something is very easy, it’s unlikely to become a habit. It’s almost when it’s much more difficult to make into a Habits, you’re more likely to become long term if it’s very easy.

It doesn’t become a habitual so much.

[00:06:03] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah. I don’t know. I think it just depends on the person and it depends on the thing they try to create, right? And it depends on when you start, I don’t know, brushing my teeths not overly hard, but I do that, it is, that’s a habit that’s both easy and extremely habitual. So I really think it’s about the person.

[00:06:17] Exercise as a non-negotiable in my life

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[00:06:17] Kathleen Trotter: I think it’s about their sort of built in. View of the world and view of themselves. we were talking a little bit before we started recording how, for me, I have made exercise such a non-negotiable in my life, but because of growing up with a single mom and not a lot of money and just being very anxious about sort of money and security that the harder thing for me to create a habit around is actually taking rest, taking time off. and I was saying that I’m trying to create a habit around when a client cancels, taking a pause. and asking myself like, Do you wanna reschedule this person or do you want the hour to yourself?

Which sounds probably for most people, I really like why is that hard for you, Kathleen? But my really ingrained habit from years of being worried about money and just worried about security is, I don’t even pause and think I just automatically, rebook. and I think for some people that would not be a hard thing to change, but for me it is actually really legitimately hard.

And the point of the story is, woe is me. But the point is that we’re all gonna have things that are harder to change. and if it was easy for us to exercise or eat well, we would’ve done it 20 years ago. there’s something we have to figure out, not just like this sort of, they talk about a cue behavior and the reward of a habit, so you have to figure out all parts of that.

So not just the cue. So for me it’s okay, if I’m working on changing the habit of taking that hour off, so the cue is, a client emails and cancels. Okay. So that’s the cue. And then it’s okay, the behavior is I pause and decide what I wanna do, but then you also have to look at the reward, what are you getting?

[00:07:48] Automatically rescheduling

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And what is rescheduling somebody automatically get me, Oh, that gets me a sense of security. And so that’s a very hard thing to give up if you still have a lot of fear in your mindset. So it’s just, I think the thing with Habits is, More complicated and also simpler than we give it credit for.

[00:08:05] Kathleen Trotter: Like it is. It’s just a repetition game. The more you do things, the more ingrained it is. Like Habits are by nature, habitual, so they take less cognitive energy, but they can be very hard at the beginning to change. there’s an influx of energy that’s needed to understand, how you’re gonna change the cue, how are you gonna change the behavior?

How are you gonna change the reward, and what reward are you getting for the version of your reality that you’re currently doing? And then sometimes it just needs a little bit of, compassion around that, right? Like for me, It’s easy for me to get very angry at myself because then I don’t give myself that break.

I get over exhausted and it’s not good for my health. I’m like, Kathy, and you’ve been in therapy for 20 years. Like, why aren’t you better at doing this? It’s no, this is what’s hard for me and this is why, and this is how, have my compassion. And then this is also my growth mindset.

take a moment, do you feel better? When you overwork, or do you feel better when you have some recovery? Okay, I feel better when I have some recovery then that’s what I need to do. But that’s what’s exercise too. Like people will, if you skip a workout, you have to pause and you have to say, Okay, do I feel better because I skipped this workout?

[00:09:04] Kathleen Trotter: No, I don’t. I feel worse. Okay, so next time I wanna skip a workout, I have to remind myself like, you will feel better when you move. The reward of moving is that you feel more energized, you feel more in control. but it’s, I guess what I’m trying to say is it, A process. And you have to understand, where your current Habits are coming from and where the Habits you want to achieve, what they would give you.

And then it’s a constant process of reminding yourself, of Okay, what do I get from this? Oh, I will feel better. if I eat, if I drink water, I will feel better, my digestion will be better. I’ll have more energy, my skin will be better. if I eat vegetables, I will. more vitalized.

Again, my gut microbiome would better like all these things. but yeah, Habits are habitual, but they don’t become habitual without that initial influx of learning and attention and awareness.

I was listening earlier today to, are you familiar with Andrew Huberman?

[00:09:56] Kathleen Trotter: I love the Huberman podcast. Of course. Oh my God, yes,

[00:09:59] Cognitive benefits of exercise

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[00:09:59] Tony Winyard: And in, in the latest episode, he’s talking with another neuroscientist. I can’t remember the guy’s name, but he at one point talked about, how he has to exercise regularly. And he wasn’t, And for him it’s not about the benefits, the fitness benefits. It’s the cognitive benefits because he’s noticed that if he doesn’t exercise regularly, it affects him cognitively.

and although that is known, the cognitive benefits, I don’t think that’s emphasized enough because a lot of people just think about the, how they’re gonna get fitter, they’re gonna look better and so on. It’s there’s so many benefits cognitively.

[00:10:36] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah, I love that because for me, what that highlights is you have to understand for you what is gonna be your why, and everyone has to be really aware of themselves, know their thyself, like that Socrates idea of knowing themselves. Because for me, What makes me exercise is less about the cognitive.

[00:10:53] Mood journal

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[00:10:53] Kathleen Trotter: Like I’m, again, I know it’s great, I know it’s important, but what gets me outta bed is the knowledge that it improves my mood. And that’s because I’ve dealt with depression over my, over the last, 40 years of my life. And one of the things that my therapist did when I first started working with her was she made me keep a mood journal.

And she said, Okay, write down your mood before exercise and then write down your mood on a scale of one to 10 after. And I can see from two weeks of keeping this journal. And I still have the data that I always feel better. if I’m a one before exercise, I’m a four after. I’m a four before exercise.

I’m a five after. so for me, that’s so important for myself talk. And so what I would encourage everybody listening to think of is okay, so what does exercise do for me? is it a chance to be connected to my partner? Maybe we go for walks with our dog, or I go out and play with my . Kids, or I feel more in control of what I can control or my mood is better, or my cognitive, my mental ability to be there. I’m less foggy in my brain. Like the thing is there’s so many benefits of movement, and if you can pinpoint for you how it really positively impacts your life, and then when you don’t wanna do it, you can say to yourself, Okay, I’m not gonna let my momentary desire derail me from long term success, and here are the reasons why that I will feel.

[00:12:10] To make habits habitual you have to be intentional

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you’re much more likely to do it, and the more often you do it, This ties back to what we were talking about before, that Habits are habitual, but in order to ingrain them, you have to be intentional. And that self talk of Okay, this will help my ability to focus, this will improve, or decrease my brain fog.

[00:12:26] Kathleen Trotter: Like those are the ways that you intentionally create the habit because then, you exercise for 40 days in a row and you’re like, Oh, it’s much more, it’s. to do it. And that’s one of the things, like I’ve been doing this for 20 years. At the beginning it was almost impossible for me to make myself move cuz it wasn’t a habit and I didn’t understand how it would make me feel so much better.

But through making myself being very intentional in the first, couple years of my fitness journey, it’s now. Almost harder for me to skip a workout than it is for me to do the workout. Cause it’s just such a habit and I so understand how much better I will feel after. So I don’t know. Is it, what would it, what’s your why for exercise?

Like what’s, would you wanna skip a workout? What do you say to yourself?

[00:13:09] Tony Winyard: I think I don’t, I just enjoy it so much and I have my whole life from when I was a kid, so I just always, I always had, I did, I don’t think there’s ever been a point in my life.

[00:13:19] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah.

[00:13:20] Tony Winyard: There’s certainly never been a point in my life where I’ve been like overweight or anything, but because, and partly because I’ve got a very fast metabolism, a lot of energy, and I just always am doing some kind of sport, exercise, walking, whatever.

I’m always doing

[00:13:33] Paying off the exercise debt

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[00:13:33] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah. So you were so lucky cuz that’s been part of your life since you were a, since you were born. And I think that for those of us, like me, who that wasn’t for the first 20 years of my life, it’s like, it’s like I had a, exercise bank account and I was in like a billion dollars of debt for the first 20 years, and I’m just slowly bringing myself up, paying off the debt, and then, then I’m creating the bank account on the other direction.

But it’s it’s hard if you have a foundation of whatever it is, as I said earlier, like my foundation is being worried about money and making sure that I’m really on top of all that. That’s my foundation. So it’s very hard to override it and create a new habit of saying No, you’re okay.

You can take an hour break. No one’s gonna, and again, like I want when people listening to, to, I’m giving this example of me, but it’s not in the details of my story. It’s, I want them listening to think, Okay. Like, where do my choices come from and how do I have compassion for. Where I came from and also where I wanna be.

[00:14:28] How to create the habits to make you become the person you want to be

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my second book is called Your Fittest Future Self. And I really encourage people to think, okay, like, where do I wanna be in five years? Where do I wanna be in 10 years, and how do I create the Habits today that will make me into that person? James Clear talks about, every choice that you make is a vote for the future you.

[00:14:47] Kathleen Trotter: So if you know you wanna be, moving 30 minutes every day in the year, Okay, So then start with five minutes a day. Start with 10 minutes a day and keep voting for that future version of you and it will happen. But it won’t happen if you don’t vote for the person today. he, again, he, I love James Clear and he talks a lot about like how our bank account is a lagging sort of aggregate of all of our choices over the last five years or 10 years or our life or whatever.

And that’s a fitness as well. It’s it’s just like a lagging combination of all of our choices. so if you want in five years your bank account to be a certain way, your health bank account, you gotta make certain choices today and not put off till tomorrow changing the things that you can do today.

again, it’s that sort of like those things that seem really easy, that seem almost too easy to be worthwhile, but if they compound over and over, They make a big difference. And that’s the beauty of Habits. They don’t have to be hard, you drink a sip of water, every 10 minutes that adds up.

[00:15:43] Kathleen Trotter: You drink a glass of water an hour. Or if you say, I tell my clients, make, Before you have your breakfast, before you have your coffee, you have to have a bottle of water. Before you have your lunch. You have to have a bottle of water before your dinner. And over the day, that makes a big difference.

But over a year, oh my god, does that make so much difference?

that’s like the, Do you know the compound effect? Darren Hardy.

[00:16:01] Kathleen Trotter: Yes. Yeah, so that’s also James Clear also talks about the compound effect. Yeah. The plateau of latent behavior as well. This

[00:16:07] The Magic Penny

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the doubling penny and so on.

[00:16:09] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah. It’s a wonderful example and it just, it makes it palatable or doable because that’s the other thing that I find very frustrating with the fitness, the discourse is it’s wow, if you don’t work out for two hours, it’s not worth it. And if you can’t,if you can’t eat perfectly, it’s not worth it.

[00:16:22] 10 minutes exercise a day

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[00:16:22] Kathleen Trotter: It’s no, of course it’s worth it. Like 10 minutes, a couple times a day adds up. it’s way better than nothing and you have to make it so it’s enough of emotion. Like enough of an act that you feel proud of that act. It’s like that little win, but not so big of a hurdle that you won’t do it right.

And that so many of us, we set ourself up for failure cuz we were like, if I can’t go for a walk, then like I just won’t do anything. I was talking to a client earlier, or you’re emailing back and forth and she’s I can’t get out for my hour walk today, so I guess it’s not gonna happen.

I was like, Do you have 15 minutes? And she’s Yeah. I was like, ok, we’ll do 15 minutes. Do you have 15 minutes this afternoon? She’s Yeah. I was like, Oh. And so we found an hour, but it’s spread out over the day.

[00:17:00] Tony Winyard: Yeah,

[00:17:00] Kathleen Trotter: It’s way better than zero minutes and she’ll feel good. She’ll feel in control.

[00:17:04] Tony Winyard: and in many ways, two 15 minutes is better than one 30 minutes.

yeah, for sure. You get different benefits from both. if you’re training for a marathon, you gotta make sure you get the longer steady state cardio in. But the thing about 15 minutes is it gets your blood flowing, it gets your lymphatic system going. It gives you a sense of control. It breaks up when you’re walking and moving.

[00:17:22] Andrew Huberman on the Impact Theory podcast

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[00:17:22] Kathleen Trotter: You’re not. Sitting and sitting is the worst. So it’s just, it’s really getting away from perfect and thinking progress and thinking about, as you said about the compound effect and what can I do in this moment? I, I first heard about or learned about Andrew Huberman on the. Impact Theory podcast and people listening, that’s a great interview.

and he talks a lot on that interview. His first one, or huberman talks a lot about the importance of these little wins. and the little wins for multiple reasons, but for the most part in that conversation, what he’s talking about is the little wins on the idea of the dopamine system and understanding that like you get this hormonal response when, because dopamine is connected to reward, and so it’s really hard if your goal is like four months from now, like a marathon or if you’re trying to lose a lot of weight, it feels almost impossible because that reward is so far away, but you won’t get to that reward.

[00:18:16] Kathleen Trotter: You won’t get to that goal if you can’t make those small changes along the way. So you have to find ways to break it down, little goals, little rewards, get that dopamine hit, feel like you’re progressing and then moving forward. I really encourage anybody who’s like into that kind of sciencey stuff, like the Impact Theory with Andrew Huberman, the first one.

Amazing.

well, I dunno about you. When I first discovered Huberman, it’s probably about a year ago. And I think I first discovered it around about like episode 22 or something like that, and I immediately went back and listened

[00:18:49] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah, I listed all of it. Yeah. Yeah. He’s so smart and he’s so funny. Yeah, it’s fantastic. And it’s great. Yeah. My sister’s, she has a PhD in, neuroscience and I was like, You have to listen to him. He’s so good. She’s, my sister and I both love science, but she like goes into the lab and like cuts up brains and stuff.

Whereas I’m more on the practical side and so it’s a fun thing to be able to be like, this is, it’s like, it’s almost like where that like lab-based science really. the greater discourse in the world, and he does a great job of making it very based in science, but also very approachable. Yeah. this could be an ad for the Huberman podcast!

[00:19:21] Kathleen’s reason for wanting to get into exercise initially

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[00:19:21] Tony Winyard: Could be, couldn’t it? Yeah. You mentioned a couple of times about how 20 years ago or whatever it was, , you found it quite difficult to transition into the health, fitness kind of realm. So at that time, what were your reasons for wanting to do it? was it because you knew the benefits or What was happening around.

[00:19:39] Kathleen Trotter: excellent question. so I think I’ve always wanted to like, so I’m 39 and for the first half of my life there was never a day that I didn’t wanna get fit. but wanting and doing, as we’ve already said, are two different things. And my mom was, is an amazing mom. And, all the way through my childhood she would, she would put me in softball and she would put me in, I dunno, dance.

And I just, I hated being around my peers and exercising and sweating with people my own age. And I felt super insecure. I would lie to get out of gym class. and finally it was, I honestly, I credit my mom for this. And she said to me, Kathleen movement has to be a non-negotiable, but I understand that right now we’re trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Like,we haven’t found your fit. We haven’t found what works for you. And she’s like,I don’t care if you exercise as other 15, 16, 17 year olds do. I just need you to move. So how can we do it? And we lived in a small town and she got me a membership to the YMCA and the demographic of the Y is kind under five and over 40.

And she said, We’re gonna go to the y. There’s not gonna be any of your classmates and we’re gonna walk on the treadmill for 10 minutes. And that’s how I started. And that sort of spiraled into 20 minutes, which turned into 30, which turned into doing some strength training, which turned into taking some aerobics classes, which turned into teaching aerobics classes, which turned into me doing kinesiology in my undergrad.

I was always gonna be a lawyer, but I was like, I can do undergrad and then I’ll go to law school. And then I finished my undergrad and I was like, Oh, no. And then I took my Pilates certification, and then in the end I just ditched law school and I did a master’s in exercise science, but, It really was this very slow, wonderful, positive spiral that started with my mom saying

[00:21:09] Ditch the shoulds

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[00:21:09] Kathleen Trotter: Ditch the shoulds.

It doesn’t matter what other people your age do all that matters is what you will do. And that’s such a basis for my philosophy. Like I really try to encourage my clients to find, So the name of my first book is Finding Your Fit, and I encourage everyone to find their fit. Are they a gym bunny? Okay, great.

Go to the gym. Are they a sort of competitive bunny? Great. Join a sports team. Are they busy multitasker? Do they need to walk on conference calls? and exercising the park with their kids. great, do you need to work out at home? Great. what? I don’t care what it is. There’s no judgment.

They just have to move and they have to do something. because once you start, it can always change. Like you can start by being the person who walks three days a week at work and. Maybe your colleagues that you walk with is You wanna join a gym together? And you’re like, ok, let’s join a gym. And then you become like it.

[00:21:52] If you don’t start, you have nothing to iterate

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[00:21:52] Kathleen Trotter: It can always. Iterate and change. But if you don’t start, you have nothing to iterate. You can’t tweak anything if you’re not starting. So the most important thing is to just do something. you do not have to be great to start, but you do have to start to get great. and I think that we get so caught in this comparison game and this shame game and just being like, Oh my God,I should be fitter, I should be better.

I should, all this stuff. It’s stop shoulding all over yourself. do something small today. And then just rinse and repeat, keep doing those small things that make you fitter and make you better and make you feel better.

[00:22:25] Tony Winyard: So do you get many clients coming to you? you’ve just talked about the shoulding. So I’m wondering if you get many clients coming to you who just, that they want, they know that they should be, they feel that they should be doing some kind of movement exercise, but for whatever reason they just feel they’re can’t.

Do you get those sort of

[00:22:43] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think I get a huge variety of clients, but definitely some of them are like that. And I think a lot of it is a combination of, the shame that I was feeling when I was younger and a little bit of embarrassment, and so I really just try to meet them where they are. I think a lot of the fitness discourse is so,Wrapped up in, the, what the celebrities are doing in burpees and CrossFit and all that stuff’s great.

There’s no part of me that’s saying that, high impact activity is bad or CrossFit is bad. What I’m saying is that, It’s the progressive model of health or the educational model of health. Like you have to think about health as, grades from kindergarten to a master’s program. And if you were in grade one, ace grade one, and then move to grade two and then move to grade three.

And too many of us, we don’t even start because, we look at somebody who’s, doing a PhD in fitness and we’re like,I should be at that level. It’s should you,have you ever gone for a run before? Have you ever done sports? Oh no, you haven’t done that?

[00:23:36] We’re not very good at being bad at things

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[00:23:36] Kathleen Trotter: Okay, great. So why should you be good at that? I. It’s just part of our world is we’re not very good at being bad at things. And if you’ve never done something before, like you should be kinda bad at, like, there’s no reason for you to be good at running or playing a sport or going to the gym if you’ve never done that before.

we all had to crawl and then walk. we, we weren’t born, being able to run like it’s this progressive model. and I think where we. We get in our own heads is instead of being in grade one, being very proud to be in grade one, working to ace grade one, we are in grade one and we’re like, Oh my God, I, I can’t do grade five math, like I’m a failure.

[00:24:10] Kathleen Trotter: And it’s nope, you’re not a failure, you’re just in grade one. So learn grade one and then move on. And that’s with everything, right? Like people are like, I start them with balance training, for example, and they’re, they’re wibbly wobbly and they’re all over the place and they’re like, Oh my God, I’m so embarrassed.

I don’t wanna do this. It’s but why would you be good at this? Have you ever done this move before? no. Ok, so be ok. Being bad at it, like I’m a really good runner, but that’s because I’ve been running for, whatever it is, 15 years now. I’ve done marathons, I’ve done Ironmans. But when I first started running, I couldn’t run a block.

And that’s okay. And it’s not, it’s actually more than, Okay. It’s completely. To be expected, right? if I’ve never spoken, I don’t know. I don’t know anything, any German or, Spanish or whatever. I’m like, that’s okay. If I started to learn it, I’d get better at it.

[00:24:51] Tony Winyard: and exactly what you were just saying, be okay with being bad. But that’s not what we, human nature’s not we don’t like being bad at do we? we?

[00:24:58] Kathleen Trotter: No. And of course, and I don’t either, so I’m not saying that like I’m great at this, I’m getting better at this. and I’m just trying to lean into when I do feel a little bit of shame over being bad, it’s something where I feel a little bit awkward. I Okay, it’s okay. Like you’re allowed to feel, feelings are not facts, feelings are not, acts like you can feel however you want.

[00:25:16] Toxic positivity

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[00:25:16] Kathleen Trotter: And then, You decide to move forward from there. I’m also not into, toxic positivity and ignoring your feeling and then saying Oh, you should, don’t, it’s easy to get into this thing of Oh, Kathleen says that I should be okay being bad. Okay, then why am I feeling, hard at myself for being bad?

And then you get into this sort of like you’re think you’re criticizing for your thoughts, and then you’re thinking and you’re criticizing those thoughts and you get in this spiral and it’s like you can feel however you want. But then you take the actions that serve you. my partner James and I, we always have this thing like no emotion, no feeling is bad, but action.

But there are some actions that are bad, right? if he wants to be angry at me, great, but like yelling at me, slamming doors not so great. not that he’s done that, but I dunno why chose that. You know what I mean? be as sad as you wanna be, be as mad at your boss as you wanna be, but don’t eat an entire cake.

you can feel the feelings and take actions that serve you. and that, I think that’s also a tricky part for us, right? We wanna either feel amazing at being bad at things, or we wanna skip the step of feeling crappy, and it’s Oh no, you can feel crappy and then you can keep going.

[00:26:21] Tony Winyard: So you talked about the book that you wrote, Well, I think you wrote a couple of books now, haven’t

[00:26:25] Kathleen Trotter: I’ve written two books. Yeah. Finding Your Fit is the first one. and Your Fit is Future Self

[00:26:29] Tony Winyard: So on that, on the first book, Finding Your Fit, so when did you write that?

[00:26:34] Kathleen Trotter: Oh, I think it was maybe six years.

[00:26:39] Tony Winyard: so we’re talking about five, six years ago. So what were your, can you remember, what were your initial reasons for writing that in the first place?

[00:26:46] How Kathleen’s first book came about

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[00:26:46] Kathleen Trotter: Oh, I love your questions. So I, there’s our national newspaper here in Canada is called The Globe Mail. And so for years I wrote for the Globe for maybe about eight years, and I also wrote for Huffington Post and I did a bunch of blogs. and I think eventually enough people said You gotta put all these ideas into a book.

And one year for Christmas, I actually printed out all my different blogs from Huffington in the Globe and I put them in like a spiral notebook for my parents, just as a here you go. Haha, this is fun. And then I was looking and flipping through it and I was like, Oh, you know what, How cool would it be to have.

Through line to all these ideas and to take what I’ve written and create a unified philosophy of movement. So that’s when I put together my book proposal and I just said, press is my press here in Canada. And I just said, I’ve been writing for many years. I have lots of great ideas.

And I feel like through writing all these different blogs and different articles, I’ve honed my craft of writing. But I’ve also started to create a real philosophy of movement. And I’d like to put it. And that’s what finding your fit was. It really is my philosophy of, don’t fit a square peg into a round hole.

find your fit, find what type of per are you that gym bunny? Are you a home bunny? Are you a competitive bunny? what type of movement? and then go from there. And you can always change. Your seasons of movement can change, but you have to start. yeah, the book goes through these different, like ways you can exercise at home or at a gym.

[00:28:03] Kathleen Trotter: It goes through the idea of exercising and becoming a healthier human is a marathon, not a sprint. So it’s a lot of philosophy and mindset, but the main message of the book is just start wherever you are. Just start don’t put off till tomorrow what you can do today. Stop shoulding on yourself.

Stop judging yourself and move.

[00:28:20] Tony Winyard: So whenwhen that book came out, and then obviously you got reaction positive and I guess may maybe some negative as well. At least critique maybe.

so from that process, so you are starting to get, commentary about what you’ve written and then you’re deciding to write another one.

So then how did you go? What did you think? I need to do something drastically different for the follow up or what was your thought process? Process then?

[00:28:44] Kathleen Trotter: I think a lot of it is just like a natural evolution. So the first book really is, don’t worry about the details, just move. and I have a very good, friend, her name is Emily. We’ve been, we went to high school together actually. And, we were going, I think we were having a pedicure, and she was asking me all these questions like, what do you think about intermittent fasting and what do you think about Legree Pilates?

And,and she was going into more detail than I had gone to in the first book, right? she was beyond the point of just moving and she wanted more concrete details. And the answer to all of her questions was, here is the pro of this, and here’s the con of this. And depending on who you are, this pro fits for you and this, And that conversation probably went on.

20 different pedicures for a year. That’s too many pedicures. But Like many conversations. And eventually she just said to me like, Kathleen, this is your next book. And I was like, What do you mean? And she said, I don’t wanna just move, I want slightly more directive.

And I don’t quite understand what the directive is and I don’t quite understand What are the different pros that work for me? Like everything, when somebody’s promoting a way of movement, they only talk about the good things. And so I just don’t know, what should I do? What should I not do? How much of things do I do?

[00:29:48] Mindset, Nutrition & Fitness

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[00:29:48] Kathleen Trotter: How do I balance strength and cardio? and she’s And how do I know what way of eating is for me? And so that’s what the second book really is, it’s divided into three parts, mindset, nutrition and fitness. And each of those three parts, I divide different modalities. And I do the pros and the cons, and then I say, Okay, for you then, if you were this type of person, then this pro of this will work for you.

so I go through, different Pilates and yoga, and so I might say Okay, you’re dealing with osteoporosis. maybe yoga’s not the best thing for you, but strength training is, and the different pros. Whereas if you’re dealing with stress, maybe yoga, like maybe that pro of yoga is for you.

and the idea being that at the end of your fittest future self, you come away being able to create a unique recipe for your success, but it’s a little bit more detailed than the finding Your fit is basically like no matter what, just move, do what works for you. And then the second one is Okay, great, now you’re moving.

[00:30:38] Kathleen Trotter: How do you make sure you’re getting enough of the mobility and enough of the cardio and enough of the strength? and how do you know what mindset to use? Should you do some meditation? So you should, you do some therapy? And how do you know what nutrition, modality? Do you wanna do the Mediterranean diet?

Are. something like more of a food delivery service would work for you. So it’s just about understanding yourself.

[00:30:57] Tony Winyard: What I also like about what you just said is one of the things about, bioindividuality and there’s too many books say, this is the way that you should do things, which is just wrong in so many different levels. And so I like that approach that you just talked about, how presenting the negatives and the positives to, Yeah.

[00:31:15] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah, there’s negativism, positives, everything. And like even if you just take, you and me we’re both in the health and wellness field, but you just said you don’t really need much motivation to exercise cuz it’s just like part of your natural sort of ability. So if I was training you, the mindset, tools and tricks that I would take with you would be very different than if I was training somebody like me who still has to for the well, like it’s getting easier and easier for me to exercise.

for the longest time I really needed a lot of mindset tricks to help me. Neither way is good or bad, it just has to fit the person that’s in front of you. And so if you are somebody listening to this podcast and you get in shape, you wanna eat better, part of it is just letting go that there’s no perfect way of doing anything.

[00:31:55] Kathleen Trotter: There’s only what works for you. and that serves the goal and the purpose that you wanna achieve.

[00:32:01] Tony Winyard: So how so when did the last book come out or the most recent?

just before the pandemic, so a couple years.

[00:32:06] Tony Winyard: So how’s the reaction been?

[00:32:09] Kick Your Ass with Compassion group coaching

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[00:32:09] Kathleen Trotter: I think it’s good. And what I’ve done since the two, those two books is created what I call the Kick Your Ass with Compassion Group Coaching, because I think the reaction mainly for both the books, especially the second one, because it was a, it’s a little bit more detailed and complex is okay, this is such amazing information now, Can I have a little bit of support and accountability implementing it? So now people from around the world can join me for five weeks. it’s on Zoom, it’s at Toronto Eastern Standard Time at 7.30. it’s Thursday nights and I run the course like three times a year. And over the five weeks it’s a coaching course, so it’s not exercise.

we go through everything from mindset to nutrition, like the principles, the first principles of mindset, nutrition, and exercise, and people set goals. And then the idea being that everyone’s working towards different goals, but the science of goal setting and achievement is the same. So that’s what I’m teaching everybody.

[00:32:59] Kathleen Trotter: And then for five weeks, they have unlimited. via email with me to ask me any questions. If they’re reading a portion of the book and they’re like, Oh, this doesn’t make sense, they can ask me. And then it’s a dialogue. And, yeah, it’s, I really try to encourage, per people, this is such a learning experience.

It’s such a process. There’s no, there’s no, it’s an health is an infinite game. It’s a game you play to the day you die. So this is not a, I lose 10 pounds and then I stop. I, you don’t win the game and then finish playing. Like you win the game and then you keep. Youso yeah, I’m really enjoying the group coaching, but that was definitely, that was the feedback I got of okay, this is great, but I want a little bit more of a community and I want a way to ask you questions, and I want a way to bounce things off.

[00:33:35] Tony Winyard: So I get the impression from what you’ve just said, that course is, doesn’t matter what level you’re at as

no. Yeah, and that’s what’s interesting is it’s, the coaching course is very much, as I said, it’s a course about the science behind achieving a goal. So I will have people there that their goal is to walk 15 minutes a day. And then I have some people in the course that their goal is to run a marathon.

[00:33:54] Kathleen Trotter: Some people, their goal is to lose 50 pounds, and some people, their goal is just to, eat more vegetables and it doesn’t matter. And you can share the goal with. Or not, but I’m. Really try to instill in people that you can’t just wish yourself to success. Like you have to say, Okay, here’s my goal, and then what are the systems that I’m gonna use to create that new habit and to create the goal and whatever the goal is.

Everybody needs awareness that you need preparation. and you need systems to set yourself up for success. And too often with health, we try to wish ourself health. It’s Oh, this week will be different. It’s will it? what have you done to make it. so that’s definitely what we do in the course.

And it’s also a course that allows for some community, which I think is, it takes a village always. I encourage people listening to this. if, if they don’t wanna join the course, cool. But how can you create a village in your own life of people that you go for walks with?

Or maybe somebody you meet on Sundays and you cook a bunch of healthy food. you take it home and you have that in your freezer, or just somebody you email back and forth with to be like, Oh, are you eating your vegetables today? Or whatever. It’s we just, we’re social creatures. We need people in our lives.

[00:34:52] Tony Winyard: would you say is thinking back over that, the last 30, 20, 20, 30 years, whatever

can you think. A habit or a behavior that you found really difficult to implement that you really wanted to do that was really.

for the first half of my life, anything to do with exercise and healthy eating for sure was difficult. I think, I think my journey has been more of a, almost like a pendulum swing. So I was so unhealthy and then so scared of going back to that unhealthy ness that I swung too far in the other direction with a lot of disordered eating and just orthorexia, like everything had to be really perfect.

and. Overly conscious of everything cuz I was so worried about falling backwards into my sort of less healthy Habits. so it’s been a process of of the pendulum swinging and then now trying to normalize, just having a little bit more self-trust and knowing that if I wanna sit on the sofa and chill, that’s okay, because that doesn’t mean that tomorrow I’m gonna be in bed for 24 hours.

[00:35:50] Kathleen Trotter: Cause you know, I struggled a lot with depressive episodes when I was younger and I wouldn’t get outta. And that, so that scares me. I, and so it’s, I think the habit that I’ve had to really work on is that I can trust myself to know that I will bounce back to my healthier Habits. And even if I take a rest day or if I have some chocolate cake, like I love chocolate almonds, chocolate fudge bars.

But to trust that I can have a little bit of that, and that doesn’t mean I’m gonna have 75 pieces of chocolate cake, But it. It’s all such a process. It really is. And it’s very easy when you’ve lived a life, of, sneaking food and skipping exercise to be really afraid that’s what you’re gonna go back to.

And it takes a while to be like, Nope, calm down. Take a breath. you’re only human and you have to find that sort of like balance that actually serves your health. Cause the problem with disordered eating and overexercise is it doesn’t serve your health. It’s bad for you in a totally other direction.

and to circle back to what we talked about at the beginning of the podcast, it’s also just that overworking like that comes from this need to control. And I’m working on it, it’s compassion. Compassion for myself.

[00:36:54] Growth mindset

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[00:36:54] Tony Winyard: You mentioned before about Carol Dweck and growth mindset. So how are there many of your clients, when you first start working with them who don’t have a growth mindset?

[00:37:07] Kathleen Trotter: Oh, what a fantastic question. I don’t know if very many people know the term, like even people who have a growth mindset, I’m not sure that they would say to me like, Kathleen, I have Carol Dweck’s growth mindset. Like it’s not necessarily in their vernacular, but a lot of people have. I don’t know. I think that what’s interesting about a growth mindset is a lot of people can have it in different, in one part of their life, but not for their health and wellness. And that’s what I try to encourage people to understand when they say to me like, Oh, I just, I can’t get fit. I’ve tried it so many times I can’t do it.

I’m like, no, but you can, you have the skill of awareness. You have the skill. Like at work, I, I see you, you made a mistake and then you learned from that mistake and you implemented that knowledge so you, you know how to do it. You just haven’t learned how to apply it to.

Exercise and health. So I think there’s a combination of, No, I would say there’s different camps. Like I think there’s some people that have a hard time with growth mindset across the board in their life. So it’s,it’s more of a trait of who they are. And then there are people that have a hard time with growth mindset, with exercise.

It’s more like in this, in that state of exercise, but they can do it in other parts of their lives. but I think it’s a conversation I have with every single one of my clients because even people who have a growth mindset, if you’re afraid or you get triggered or you. You just, you’re tired, you haven’t eaten.

Like,it’s so easy to lose the growth mindset, like in a moment. That in that moment, like you’re over tired and so easy, like, Oh my God, I’m a failure. I’m never gonna succeed. And it doesn’t mean that big picture, you don’t have a growth mindset, but in that moment it’s hard to have. So that’s the other thing.

It’s it’s just, it’s. I don’t think it’s a hundred percent constant ever for anybody. Like even me, I’m extremely aware of wanting to have a growth mindset, if I’ve missed, a good quality sleep or if I haven’t eaten my lunch yet, or whatever, I can be much more prone to ma and like wanting to be perfect versus wanting to grow.

and so again, I think it really goes back to just awareness and compassion with yourself. And we’re never gonna be perfect. But can you be aware enough to know when you’re slightly going off the rails and pull. Back to a more centered, growth oriented self.

[00:39:06] Orthorexia

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[00:39:06] Tony Winyard: And do you ever have any people you’ve worked with who are maybe a bit too. Too obsessive with about health.

[00:39:15] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah. And what I think is wonderful is since I’ve been there, I feel like I can really talk to them about it. and that’s when I get hard on myself of Oh, Kathleen, you let yourself go too unhealthy in the other direction. I start to get mad at myself. I’m like, No, you learn so much. Like how awesome is it that you have been at both?

Polar ends of this journey. You’ve been way too overly conscious and you’ve been way too under conscious. so yeah, I, I definitely work with people, who are that orthorexic like too overly rigid. over the years I’ve worked with some younger, Girls where their parents have got me to come in and work with them like their, who are in their teens.

And again, I feel like I was able to really genuinely say I’ve been there. I get it. I understand the desire to be super rigid because that sense of control can feel really good, but here’s the, the problems with this mindset. but it, yeah, I think that all of this. Can exist in all gender, in both, all genders, all people, all ages, all ages and stages, And it’s, again, it really goes back to what can I learn from the experience?

How can I be compassionate with myself? but how can I find that tricky balance of holding myself accountable while being compassionate. And that’s why my courses call kick your Ass with Compassion because you have to walk that fine line. you have to be compassionate with yourself because you love and you respect yourself because you want to grow and change and evolve, but you also have to hold your toes to the fire and say, Okay, if I truly wanna change and evolve, I have to go for a walk right now, or I have to give myself what I need versus what I want, which is very, it’s hard and it’s easy.

To do one or the other. Like it’s easy to think compassion is letting yourself off the hook. Oh, who cares? I’ll just watch a bunch of television. You need a bunch of crappy food. I love myself. It’s that’s not actually truly compassion. Like you wouldn’t say to your child,here’s 17 pieces of cake and 14 bars of ice cream and watch TV for 12 hours.

Because with your kids, you can take that objective view and say Okay, my compassion and my love means that I’m gonna get you to do the serve you here is like one ice cream bar and watch one episode of television. and so that’s what we have to flip on ourselves. We have to learn to have that compassion that serves us while also holding ourselves accountable.

[00:41:22] Exercise and kids

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[00:41:22] Tony Winyard: So staying with kids, you just talked about kids and that was in my, I’d love to get your opinion on, or say you were put in charge of physical education in schools because the situation that I see, certainly in England, I can’t speak for North America, but, so my daughter’s 13.

[00:41:39] Kathleen Trotter: Okay. It’s a hard age. I had a hard time at 13.

[00:41:42] Tony Winyard: And she now in, there’s much more of a focus on the academic side of her school life and they’ve now reduced the amount of physical, for what’s called PE over here. I dunno if it’s the same

[00:41:53] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah. It’s, yeah. PE as

[00:41:54] Tony Winyard: and there’s now less PE than there has been in previous years. and it seems to me that there shouldn’t be less, But also I’ve noticed that she doesn’t seem to be, she’s now getting to the stage where she’s much more aware.

she’s less keen to be getting into doing a PE because of various reasons and from speaking with friends. There’s many other people I know who have got daughters around the sort of similar age, maybe between 13 and 16, and they just don’t want to be doing exercise

[00:42:23] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah, I know. That was me. I g I get it. I totally

[00:42:25] Tony Winyard: And because of what you said, so what I’m asking you if you, if you, what would be your suggestions for schools?

what could they do to stop that situation? To change that situation?

[00:42:36] Kathleen Trotter: yeah. So I. I don’t know about schools, but I can definitely say when I work with my clients, it’s so much about, modeling good behavior, healthy behavior, and also finding things that the child like likes and feels so family fun time together. And again, like if you look at my experience, the. PE was terrible for me because I just felt so judged by my peers.

And I think that sort of 13 to 15, 16 year age, that comparison game is so hard. So I think definitely, schools peppering in, opportunity for movement, for people to go outside, exercise fun things, having a wide variety of things from, dance to different sports, like to give people as much different opportunity, but for parents to like really have the conversation with their kids.

Okay. What do you like to do? How can I support you? What are you afraid of? Cause so much of that insecurity is about I don’t look good. I’m too fat. I’m, I’m insecure. So just having, a really honest conversation. And then also working to integrate the activity into life as a family.

can you go to the park after school? Can play a sport with your kids can, And then can you also model that behavior for them? can you be doing, if you go watch them play soccer, can you be doing lunges and squats on the sideline, or whatever that is. and I think, I’m not a parent, but I think what’s fascinating about parents is if you can actually turn.

[00:43:58] Kathleen Trotter: Parenting your child into parenting yourself, meaning it’s so easy to look at what your child needs. okay, they need more physical activity. They’re feeling insecure in their body. they, I’m gonna schedule them for dance three times a week. I’m gonna, pack them healthy food. I’m gonna have healthy dinners.

So we have those skills for other people and. What I always encourage my clients to do is, okay, so take the skills you have for your children and apply them to yourself, and just through doing that and modeling that will be inspirational. In itself and just show, and then your kids will see one that it’s possible, two, that it makes you feel better.

Three, that it’s not onerous. so it’s a very wonderful thing to see it in somebody else and have that conversation. yeah. And I encourage my clients to do a gamification with their. Family like, so can you do a, everybody keeps track of their steps and the person who gets the most steps, gets to pick family movie night or something like that.

find ways to make it fun. There’s lots of physical activity, in a lot of. Active,we have an, I think it’s called the Nintendo Switch, where you’re doing physical stuff with the video games. So just really thinking outside the box and not judging things like, I think that was part of it for me for so long.

[00:45:08] Kathleen Trotter: It was like, if you’re not doing it in PE class, if you’re not doing it like the rest of your kids your age, do it, then you’re doing it wrong. Versus saying What will you do? Like I know with my mom. I remember, doing Jane Fonda DVDs with her. and that was, I would do that and it was fun and it was great.

and so talk to your kids, like what will you do, what, that kind of stuff as well, I think is just fun. and find ways to get them involved in picking the activities. and, if they suggest something, be like, Even if you don’t think it’s the right thing, we’ll just be like, Okay, let’s try it once and let’s see.

[00:45:40] Kathleen Trotter: And again, that’s stuff you can then bounce back on yourself. So if you think, a friend of yours says, do you wanna try Zumba class? And you think, Oh, I’d hate Zumba. Just of think, Okay, if I was my child right now, I would say to my kid, Just try it once and see what you think. And so do the same thing.

Go to Zumba. Maybe you’ll love it, Maybe you’ll hate it, but whatever. You gotta work out, And so just, I don’t know, treat your kids a little bit more like you would wanna be treated.

[00:46:00] Tony Winyard: Time is moving on Kathleen. So I’m gonna change the topic. Now we touched upon your books before, so staying with books, a question I always ask everyone is there a book that’s really moved you for any reason?

[00:46:10] Kathleen Trotter: Yeah, so we’ve talked already in this conversation about Atomic Habits James Clear, we talked about Carol Dweck’s mindset. I also really like,emotional agility by Susan David. And so earlier when I was talking about the idea of, any emotion is okay, but any action is not, and feeling your feelings, but feelings are not facts.

That’s a lot. Susan David’s work, she talks about courage, being fear walking. So like you feel all the feels, but then you still make the decision that’s gonna serve you. I, so I really loved her book and she talks a lot about dead people’s goals, like the idea of being perfect, like never having any, emotions, never feeling terrible, like all those things.

She’s Okay, wellthat’s what you want. that’s not realistic to be alive. Like you cannot be alive and never have a bad day. So stop setting goals that set you up for failure. Stop setting goals that are basically only happen, if you’re dead. and yeah, she’s fabulous and, I actually think she’s.

I dunno if she’s from London or she’s British. She’s definitely, she’s not American or Canadian. anyway, she’s fabulous and she has a podcast called Checking In. They’re just like short 15 minute things on, on, on different topics. but yeah, I think emotional agility and emotional intelligence is really important when it comes to health and wellness.

Cause we have to know what we’re feeling and how to then talk to ourselves about what we’re feeling.

I’ll put links to both the book and the podcast in the show notes for anyone listening.

[00:47:24] Kathleen Trotter: Perfect.

[00:47:25] Tony Winyard: So if people wanna find out more about the course that you mentioned and your books and your social media and so on, where would they go?

my website is kathleentrotter.com and I’m @FitByKathleenT on all the socials.

[00:47:37] Tony Winyard: Okay. And finally, I think you’ve already touched upon this, but the quote that resonates with you, I’ve, I think I heard you mention it before.

[00:47:44] Kathleen Trotter: Oh, I have so many quotes I love, you don’t have to be great to start, but you do have to start to get great. I love that. I love courage as Fear Walking by Susan David and, I’m also a huge Brene Brown fan, so anything from the man in the arena, Daring Greatly speech, and then her book is called Daring Greatly.

just think that’s such an important concept for us, especially in the, in. zone of social media, it’s so easy to criticize others. And really, honestly, unless you’re in the arena and you’re, you’re getting dirty and you’re slipping, and you’re falling and you’re making mistakes,don’t criticize the doer.

go out and do,and don’t worry about being perfect. be willing to fall and get up again. as long as you’re in the arena, as long as you’re daring greatly, working is winning. Life is hard. Human thing is hard and it can feel really crappy to fall down. but it’s also feels way worse to stay on the sidelines and never try anything, is a terrible

[00:48:37] Tony Winyard: Katherine, I think I’m gonna have to invite you back for a second episode cuz Yay

there’s many more things I would like to discuss, but we just don’t have enough time. Yeah. But thank you. it’s been a great episode. Thank you.

[00:48:48] Kathleen Trotter: Oh, it’s been my pleasure.

[00:48:49] Tony Winyard: Next week is episode 92 with Dr. Jay Wiles, who is an international speaker, scientist, clinician, influencer and subject matter expert and authority on interconnection between the human stress response. And health performance optimization. He’s known as, also as an expert in HRV that’s heart rate variability.

And we speak a lot around. What is heart rate variability. Human performance. Health. And the Hanu device, he’s the chief scientific officer of Hanu health. So we talk about. What is the Hanu health device and how does that help people? That’s next week’s episode with Dr. Jay Wiles. If you know anyone who’d get some value from this week’s episode with Kathleen Trotter please do share the episode with them and hope you have a great week