Pete Williams

Jingle 0:00

Habits and health Episode 35. Welcome to the habits and health Podcast, where we believe creating healthy habits should be easy. Brought to you by an educator and coach for anyone who wants to create a healthier life.

here's your host, Tony Winyard.

Tony Winyard 0:19

Welcome to another edition of the podcast where we give you ideas on where you can improve your health and today's episode, one of the best episodes I think that I've recorded is through a guy called Pete Williams, who is a functional medicine practitioner. He has a company called Functional Medicine Associates based in London. And I invited Pete on because I wanted to have an expert to talk about the microbiome of the mouth, I think many people are getting to know a lot more about the microbiome of our gut health. But the microbiome of the mouth isn't something that most people are aware of. And it's something I wasn't aware of, until a couple of months ago. And as I've learned more about it, I realised there just was a lack of information around. And it's something that is so important and really would be helpful to so many people if they knew more about it. Pete is a real expert in this and we'll hear a lot more about his expertise and how that came about during this episode. We also dig into what is functional medicine and integrative medicine and behaviour science and many other areas and how he sees medicine developing over the next few years. And it's as I said, it's a really fascinating episode, maybe one of the best episodes that I've done in the three years I've been doing this podcast. So really hope you enjoy this episode, sit back and enjoy with Pete Williams, a functional medicine practitioner in Harley Street in London.

Habits and health. My guest today is Peter Williams. How you doing? Pete?

Pete Williams 1:52

I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Tony Winyard 1:55

I'm really glad you're you're here because as I was mentioning to you, before we started recording, I thought I'd love to have an episode about the microbiome of the mouth because it's something that when I mention it to people, they don't know what it is.A lot of people are now hearing about the microbiome in their stomach and so on. But the mouth, it seems that most people are not familiar with this at all. And I know it's something that you're quite familiar with, to say the least.

Pete Williams 2:19

Yeah, that's right. Do you want me to expand on that a little?

Tony Winyard 2:23

Yeah.

Pete Williams 2:25

Well, I think I suppose the probably the best place to start is getting an understanding of, who we are as humans. And I think that's a really good place to start. Because if we look at how we're made up purely from from, from a cellular perspective, and the amount of cells is that humans are actually slightly more bacterial than think human cells and, and so, the term in medicine that we use for that is Hello Bian. And what Hello Bian is defined as is different species occupying the same vehicle or body for the greater good of us all. And that is what a human is, is that, you know, we carry on every sort of surface bacteria.

And, and they want to live in a really nice house, and a really nice home. And so, what they do for us is they try to protect us. And, and so again, you know, when we're dealing with patients, and we're talking about microbiome and bacteria, the first thing you know, we have to understand is that purely from the amount of cells, humans are slightly more back made up by bacteria than they are human cells. So So in a very simple term, when you're understanding Well, why do people get sick, is that some of the questions one of the fundamental questions that we ask in our practice, is that maybe actually, the bacteria are in as good a shape as we would like, and therefore if they're not, they can't do the job that they need to do for us. And that's helpers protectors, and therefore you're going to get sick. So I suppose that leads us into understanding where most of this bacteria lies, and that's in the gastrointestinal tract. What's really interesting about the guest and intestinal tract, it is just a hollow tube. So you know, how we look at it from from an anatomy anatomy perspective, is that it's actually not out it's not inside the body because obviously when we're looking at what is inside the body, is that you know, if we turn if we we pulled your gastrointestinal tract, which starts at your mouth and ends at your bomb, if we pulled it, we'd be able to see all the way through it was a hollow tube, but it's an incredibly important tube. Because in what we've learned is that this is where humans fundamentally talk and have to protect against the outside world. And so this is why you've heard the lines that 70% of immune system resides the guest and intestinal tract and the answers are the other Absolutely does. And that is because that huge surface area, which is bigger than a doubles, tennis court, if we pulled it apart is where we're interfacing and, and talking to the outside world. And we've got this huge border force predominantly made up by bacteria that are literally second by second minute by minute in this, in this engaged in this war of such enormous numbers from a point of view of bacteria and what they've got to defend against that it's uncomfortable. The point about this is that this is where we start to hear about the microbiome and what the microbiome is, but, and that predominantly, is usually talking about, you know, our small intestine and our large intestine where most of these bacterial species reside. And we think there's actually, there's some reports that there's probably around about two to three pound in physical weight of bacteria that are residing in our gastrointestinal tract. But one of the key battlegrounds of course, is the mouth. And why we're why certainly ourselves have a practice, I have spent quite a lot of time looking at that and researching, and that's the developing some, some, and some testing and some courses around that is because number one, it's the first port of call where humans, in a sense, start to interact with the outside world, and start to defend that from the outside world, and also have this capacity to start deciding what they're going to do with, you know, in particular with food, you know, is this friend or foe etc. And so that starts in the mouth. And what we're learning about the mouth is that it has the second most diversed microbial density and species only second to what we're seeing in the gastrointestinal tract, we're also what we've also got to consider is that the mouth is really not separate from from the small intestine, large intestine, the colon, and it is that first port of call with some of the major battles of how humans defend against the outside world reside. And and so we've been as a, we've been, as a group, really interested in, you know, what is some of the newer mechanisms or understanding in medicine that can make people sick, or can be very much associated with increased risk of pretty much all chronic disease. And that is really about how humans how they are as a host. And, and that is all there is about the genes and how they how people can have different gene variants, and whether that's good or bad, but but importantly, how we're going to respond to what I like to say, soldiers on the battlefield, which comes into the sort of understanding of the microbiome of the mouth, but importantly, some of what we call the periodontal pathogens, certain groups of bacteria that can actually be quite destructive to humans and go on to lead them down the line of gum disease, periodontal disease. And this, there's many reasons why, why we got into this, and I'll go into that in more detail. But I just want to give you some of the obviously we have a chronic disease practice, but functional medicine practice in central London. And the and we follow it, we have to follow the science. And there's some really disturbing science that comes out to show there's a recent one

done in 2018, in looking at us populations, and what we're finding is that over 50% of the US population, over 30 years of age, has some form of gum disease. So it's huge. And what we're learning from that is that what stays in the mouth, doesn't it so what happens in the mouth doesn't stay in the mouth. And what we're seeing is that if some of these bacterial pathogens have the ability that they use the word translocate, so have the ability to move from the mouth and to distal sides of the body, whether that is the brain, whether that is the joints, whether that is the the arteries, then we're going to see these very much increased risk of problematic associations with every single chronic disease. So we're so we're very much interested in number one, the microbiome with the mouth understanding whether that in any one individual is in good shape or bad, we're very much interested in testing for and looking at, are there any major pathogenic bacteria there? And of course, if there are, what are the numbers, then we're really interested in Well, how does that how does the host respond to potential sub pathogens, you know, and and what is the sort of immune signature of this in the video And what are the consequences of that, because, again, these run into some of the mechanisms that we're understanding about what can cause and accelerate chronic disease, whether it's obesity, type two diabetes, whether it's Alzheimer's, I mean, the Alzheimer's research is, is horribly scary. And that is, again, is this aspect of understanding that when you have a barrier breach as you do with gum disease, and that might be, you know, bit of gum recession, teeth bleeding, it might be actually more advanced, where you're starting to lose your teeth, because you've got periodontal disease. And again, we know that 50% of the adult population in the UK over 40 will have some degree of established periodontal disease, you've got a barrier breach. And so that means that the chances of some of these pathogenic bacteria slipping through that barrier beach, inside the body, is going to be problematic. And when that happens, those bacteria can travel to many, many places. I give you an example. And despina, who's one of our associates, she did a shoot just last year did a research degree at King's College really looking at

a pathogenic bacteria in the mouth called fuse fuse of bacterium nucleatum. And what we've learned on that one is that that bacteria has been found in breast cancer tumours. Now it's crazy, isn't it to think well, how does an oral bacteria end up being part of the puzzle of someone's breast cancer. And the reality of that is that that bacteria is translocating through borders that have been breached, and ending up there. And when that bacteria gets there, the immune system in the breast starts to say, you definitely shouldn't be here, you're not normal. And then of course, when the immune system responds, it responds with inflammation, it responds with oxidative stress. And with that immune activation that causes not only localised damage, but slightly more systemic damage. And that's one of the major principles that we're learning to understand about when bacteria get the have the opportunity to translocate to different areas. And so we really got into this, I got into this personally, because at 45, seven years ago, now, I always had great teeth, Tony, you know, visited the dentist, twice a year, and the hygienist had a little bit of gum recession, but always told her had great teeth, started having a problem with a back tooth, went to the dentist who had been going for years. And she said to me, Well, Mr. Williams, you know that back to is gonna have to come out? And I said, Well, okay, it's fair enough, you know, I've got pretty great teeth, you know, why is it and she says, Well, you do have pretty established periodontal disease. And so not only was that a shock, from a point of view, as someone who works in, you know, I suppose in integrative medicine, never wants to be told they've got a disease. And I was just shocked because more because Tony, I really didn't have a good understanding at all about what periodontal disease was. And that's been our seven year journey to become really quite specialised. And I'm really good at understanding what are the implications from this. And I think what that revealed to me, of course, leaving that I remember leaving that dental appointment huffing and puffing home thinking, I've got no idea what this is. And of course, you know, your first port of call is straight on to PubMed, and really sort of delving into the literature and that just completely open the rabbit hole, because all the literature is there, and it's been around for 3040 years. And that was the understanding of, wow, the periodontal disease is a local disease that has very systemic effects. And so I look back at all those patients that I've had, you know, over the past decade, where I've done a good job. But maybe it wasn't a perfect job. And I didn't even ask the question about, you know, the dental health and get in on the standing of that. And so that is something that we do now is just standard of care when people come in to see us because the relationships are so profound that we cannot ignore it. And you know, hence why it's been so important for us to, we've actually wanted to really understand that host microbe relationship. And we've gone on to develop a genomic panel with a genetics company, because we're so keen on, on making sure that we understand what the battle looks like for this patient, and how we can manipulate that battle so that we can keep everything calm. If we reduce the bacterial load in the mouth, then we reduce the risk of, you know, implications in chronic disease and you know, for a practice that deals with obesity, type two diabetes with autoimmunity with you know, early stage dementia This is absolutely crucial that we're onto this and asking our patients this based on the literature. And so, you know, that's why for us. And again, I know we're talking about the oral microbiome, I don't see it as separate. But, you know, we are definitely, we definitely change the way we speak and think about our patients now. Because again, if it can't, we see many patients who have been really well looked after conventionally, you know, you look at what people come to our, to our practice, and they've been to see many people before, and those people have done a really great job. But maybe they just didn't ask certain questions. And for us, sometimes many, many really sick people are sick, because the microbes are sick, the bacteria are not in the not in the best shape. And that questions not even being asked or thought about. And so sometimes we just see people who have multisystemic dysbiosis. And that can be in nose and throat, that can be mouth, that can be small intestine, large intestine, colon, that can be vaginally, we see a lot of that, you know, the your retract. Again, we're we're moving into this area now that every single part of your body has some kind of microbe family, the group's their species there. And so you know, we always think about that, we always come back to that fundamental point that you are more bacterial than human cells. And so we've got to at least explore that side. And of course, exploring what is happening in the mouth, is really crucial for us. And so that's, as you say, That's, that's what we've gone on to explore. And it's really opened a new world. For us, it's opened a new world with dentistry, which again, what's exciting about that is that I think there's a lot there's a change in dentistry, because they can't, they can't ignore the science, they can't ignore the science of how important the role is, with regards to chronic and systemic disease. I mean, I, you know, I almost feel as though, you know, I use the line that, you know, maybe going to the dentist is as important as going to the gym, because I think that you know, that you could look at the literature and go, I've got, if I've got poor dental health, the detrimental health outcomes that may come from that are is bad is not doing any exercise. Yeah. And so it's, it's, I also find it in unfortunate because it's another situation, it's another rabbit hole that we never thought about. And you know, and we're gonna have to, and this comes back to, you know, almost the simplest aspects of, you're going to need to start cleaning your teeth well, and you're going to need to think about your diet, and you're going to need to think about everything else that goes with that, because if you get that wrong, you're going to be accelerating some of the chronic diseases. And so, we

we did a really brilliant case study of myself and a dentist called Dr. Victoria Samson. We did this really love we had this rheumatoid arthritis patient who wasn't getting any better, and actually had been to see a really great functional medicine clinician who had done a really good job systemically looking at this patient, but her rheumatoid was was getting worse and not better. A lot of her inflammatory markers were getting worse, not better. And again, for no fault of this clinicians, and again, seven years ago, I'd probably be in the same same situation. He just never asked her about a dental health and of course, this is a patient with really quite advanced periodontal disease. And so for me, it was the complete, you know what, when she came into SEO into SEO, as I said, look, I think I think the elephant in the room here is your dental health. And we've really got to get on top of that because of the relationship with rheumatoid arthritis and periodontal disease, very strong relationship with both of them, and we need to get on with it. But we need a dental expert who thinks the same way that we do and understands what I require. And so we did and we did a really great job. And pretty much within 16 weeks, we had put a rheumatoid almost into remission, where she just isn't a patient that believes she has rheumatoid arthritis anymore, which is fantastic. So we're not getting we're not we're not getting any more fleurs without it in the end if she does Fleur, she doesn't feel them, or inflammatory markers are all down. Now. Does that mean that that that patient is always going to really have to do the work that she did and continue to do the work because her mouth is so compromised, that you know, the battlefield is always raging? And the if you like the barrier breaches are always there because of where she is the answer that is yes. But I think what we did is that we looked at that and showed how quickly that we Can remise someone's disease that is not associated or not normally associated what is happening in the mouth, and we were, we're very lucky to actually present that case to the quite a large conference a few months ago. So we're sort of, we know we're on the right tracks with this. And we know we've got a sort of a process and the strategy were, you know, any chronic disease, you've got to be thinking about that bigger picture. And importantly, having that thought about, you know, just asking the question, you know, how, how good is your dental health? And, you know, what do you need to do, because it really is that important. And I think if there's any real simple message of thumb here is that understanding that you clean your teeth correctly, and you use flossing, and you go to a dental hygienist, and you go to dentist is really actually really quite crucial. Particularly if you have family history, susceptibility to losing your teeth, etc, the likelihood is we're going to see a patient that is more genetically susceptible, in the mouth on that side. So that's how we got into it.

Tony Winyard 21:06

There's so many questions going through my mind after what you just said. And one of the things that I'm thinking it very much sounds like there should be a much closer working relationship between, whatever doctor a patient has, and a dentist a patient has, there should be a much closer working relationship between, or passing information, at least between a doctor and a dentist.

Pete Williams 21:31

Yeah. And I would say that, that it's been a struggle, I think it continues to be a struggle. And I think we've got to be very selective about the dentists that we use on that. Because there's no point AWS going to a dentist, and it's really again, Tony, I think this is just I suppose you've got two sides of medicine. And you know, what I'm not going to do is slag off where we are with conventional medicine, because I've been in the I've been in, in the health industry long enough to know that humans and human health is so vastly complex is that you could spend your life in a very blinkered section of medicine, and never ever need to look out of that, because it's so vast. So I understand that. And I also wanted to stand for dentistry. There, it's almost like, holy cow. Well, my role is only to do what's in the mouth, and not to worry about anything else that goes on systemically. And so I understand that as well. But I think what what we're, I think the, the field is changing. And I rather hope that the training that we've built the genomic tests that we've done and encouraging dental hygienists and dentists to be able to have some degree of being able to step into that area to get that understanding about, you know, how do we work together with this? How do we how do we, you know, not only solve what is happening in the mouth, but but go some way to help this patient's medical condition, and also sort of inform dentistry that, you know, you know, is your patient coming in? Is your patient a type two diabetic? Is your patient, rheumatoid arthritis patients? And what is the association with what's happening in the mouth, though, and, and try and connect that up? I believe that it's, it's happening much more than it was. And I do believe that over time, this will become more and more normal as people just and I say that is because you, you know that it comes down to fundamentally you cannot ignore what the science is telling us. And the science always guides us is to say, wow, I mean, these are the relationships aren't just a little bit associated. And they are just the numbers are huge. So and, you know, a lot of these now are pointing to direct causal mechanisms. I think, you know, if you look, if you look at the research group at Texas Tech, the research group at Vanderbilt in the US, they consistently have written papers, looking at how bacterial pathogens are translocating into into your arteries, and being a direct causal mechanism in cardiovascular disease, which again, is changing the way that we are understanding how humans get cardiovascular disease, and how everything all gets lumped into that. And, you know, so how we're looking at how humans get cardiovascular disease now is, is completely different of, you know, what we fought, it was just, you know, cholesterol and lipids, you know, 50 years ago, it's completely different. And so I'm one of those mechanisms. One of those arms of that is, when you have a pathogen that has gone into a place that it shouldn't do, your immune system, tags it and go To wall with it. And it doesn't discriminate when the immune system attacks, attacks with chemical warfare, it attacks with inflammation, it ramps up oxidative stress, and they all create this peripheral damage. And that's the thing we've got to think about. And so you know, even again, when we're talking about cardiovascular disease, you can see adverse lipid profiles on people that are down to infections in their mouth. And so again, it's this deeper and deeper, deeper understanding with regards to Well, what's causing what, and how do we stop that? And so this is why when we come back to fundamental basics and trying to tell our patients, you know, how do we dress this up in a story, it is the story of the battlefield, it is the story about, you've got to have one we're talking about microbiome and the microbiome of the mouth is that in general, you want to have more more good guys and bad guys. And you want to keep that ratio. And also, we want to understand whether we've got an individual that is that has an immune system that is, and again,

I think this is one of the over things of understanding about humans, and I say, particularly with COVID, and slightly going off here is that most of the COVID patients who have had the more severe complications of COVID are the ones who tend to have the more aggressive immune systems. So their immune system, you don't need to build a stronger immune system with them, you actually need to make sure that you're calming their immune system down, you know, and so these are the things that we're learning again, periodontal disease and inflammatory diseases like that are usually from an immune system is actually a little bit too good at doing its job, it's a little bit too aggressive, and actually needs calming. So what I like to say to our patients is, look, what we want your immune system like is the 50 year old bouncer, who controls the outside of the club, you know, is that 25 years of what happens outside. So he knows that the first year students at the local university, you know, all right, they've had a few too much to drink, and probably, you know, causing a little bit of strife outside the club, but they're not really going to be problematic. And so you're not going to need to overreact. But of course, the new bouncer is 22 hasn't had that experience. That's the one is likely to overplay and so. So again, you know, again, this relationship that we understand with, with with bacteria, and this relationship, we understand with barrier breaches, and what are the complications and the consequences of, you know, bacteria that move to other places. And again, you name it, joint surfaces, and breast tissue, very much one of the areas I'm interested in, which is, which is brain. And again, if we're looking at what we're understanding with the outsiders research, a lot of the the proteins that give us a determination of Alzheimers, you know, just to be clear is that you can't get a true definition of outside as well, a patient's alive, you can only say it's suggestive about science.

We're learning that these proteins that eventually cause the outsiders are actually the brain's immune system, trying to protect the brain against invaders, and the brain has this blood brain barrier. So it's a bit like another castle wall, bit like the mouth, and that castle wall has to be monitored, and that castle wall has to be guarded. And of course, you've got to have pathways where you're allowed to come in to deliver things that the brain wants, but also take things out. If you've got a blood brain barrier that has been compromised, this is where you start to see some of these oral pathogens getting into the brain. And as you say, we're, we're quite hot on that there's one in particular, an oral pathogen called and porfa voice ginger wireless, which is create a lot of problems, not only on the blood brain barrier, but within the brain. And so the Alzheimer's research, I'm not saying she says it's changing, but it's very much thinking about well, is Alzheimer's, a disease that is genetically LED and lifestyle LED, which there's a strong component of that, but also is outside as a disease where there is a barrier breach. And while that barrier is consistently breached, things will come in that shouldn't be there. And your brain is having to try and meet these protective proteins to defend against the brain, which it does. The problem with that long term is that that becomes the problem. And so these are all the interesting aspects of how we try to deal with patients and try to get that understanding of the mouth. So if we have a patient again, maybe it's a it's a patient who's showing cognitive decline and that one of the major questions that we The last contest for is what's happening in the mouth. And we'll want to absolutely have a bacterial profile there of potential pathogenic bacteria, because we know that relationship is so strong. And what we also know is the barrier in the mouth, the barrier in the gastrointestinal tract, the blood brain barrier, very similar structures, they might not be the same. But what I how I try to explain that is that, imagine they're all castles, they might not, they might not look the same, but they are all castles. And so how they're structurally set up, how a lot of the proteins that protect them, are quite similar. So if you've what we've learned on the literature, if you've got a barrier breach, somewhere, the mouth or the gut, you are increasingly likely more, you're more likely to have a barrier breach at the brain. And so when you start getting, you know, a patient that has, you know, oral health problems has got problems. And then you're seeing all these sort of neurocognitive issues as well, you start to think, Okay, how much of that is down to barrier breaches? And do we need to think about that? And do we need to test for that. So it really, again, continues to bring us down to how important keeping good dental health is. And I mean, I know it in particular, because he said to you, I am one of those susceptible individuals, I'm one of those susceptible genotypes. And so you've got to work really hard, I have to work really hard to and I've done an absolutely fantastic job of reversing my periodontal disease, but I'm always susceptible to it. And I'll always be susceptible to it. It just the way it is the genetics dictate that. and various other aspects dictate that. So I've got to work really hard on that aspect, to not only reduce that risk, but also reduce some of the other risks from a point of view of the other chronic disease aspects. And so again, very much interested in this area, but it does become another one of those rabbit holes that you you weren't aware of, and now you are on your thing. Guys, am I ever Where are we ever going to get to the stage where? You know, we know we know, I think the answer is absolutely not, there's going to be something else that comes up that again, means you've got to think about your patient in a very different way again,

Jingle 32:21

we hope you enjoy this episode of the habits and health podcast where we believe creating healthy habits should be easy. If you are looking for deep support to create the health and life you want, we invite you to consider one on one coaching sessions with Tony. coaching sessions give you personalised guidance to fit your unique goals and life situation. Only a limited number of spots are available. But you can easily get started by booking a free introductory call at Tonywinyard.com. Now back to the show.

Tony Winyard 32:49

You've been in functional medicine, integrative medicine for what was it? I think you said 20 years now.

Pete Williams 32:57

Yeah. 20 years now.

Tony Winyard 33:00

And in that time, you've seen the the increase in the number of people operating this way in in the UK? And I'm wondering, is it the same slow increase in people in dentists who take that kind of functional approach as well?

Pete Williams 33:20

Well, I think there are some really, actually really quite established organisations in dentistry, you know, one would be, you know, Mercury free dentistry. And again, I think it's crazy, isn't it? I mean, again, whatever your thoughts on that, and again, one of the reasons why we wanted to do the oral DNA panel is that we wanted to include susceptible genotypes to mercury. And whilst I fundamentally believe that no one should have mercury amalgams in their mouth, it's not as simple as that. And so this is one of the key aspects of why we tried to work with some of the key mercury free dentists to get that understanding that there are lots of nuances that go with having a person who is healthy enough to maybe go through the extraction process, the extraction process has to be done very much in a certain way. Because if it's, if it's if it's mercury amalgams are removed in an inappropriate way that can definitely trigger off a whole host of issues. But yes, I think they are. I think there are some well established organisations, but I feel as though there is that new wave of dents, you know, and whether you call it the mercury free dentist or the biological dentistry, and side where they're trying to think, you know, we can't just put fillings in. We can't just choose a, a material to put back in someone's mouth that may be again creates an autoimmune response. We need to think maybe differently about root canals because again, the evidence with regards to root canals becoming infected and causing problems, again, I think is pretty well known. And yet we still do it. And so I think there's a, there is definitely a groundswell on that. And, totally, it comes down to, as I said, at the beginning, there comes a point where you cannot ignore the science. And so you've either got to make a decision to ignore it, or making a decision to go with it. What I appreciate is, it's hard to go with it, because you're going to have to upset that you're going to have to go in and do go down a pathway that maybe is different than you were before. And it's harder, because you suddenly got to think about a lot more scenarios with your patient. It's no longer I'm just gonna do the mouth and worry about that. It is a question well, what are the consequences of what I've just done? You know, I'm Can I be speaking to other people who can refer into me who understand what I want to do when I need to do but also, I can be told a lot more about what needs to be done from my side. So one of the key things that I'm taught to do again, I've got a strong relationship with dr. john roberts, who's one of the probably, certainly worldleading, and dentists in sort of, in biological dentistry, and we've been having these conversations for two to three years, with regards to making more secure links with dentistry. And absolutely, I think it's got to happen. But of course, again, the key thing is that, you know, it's, it's, it's probably a bit like functional medicine, I'm not gonna say it's posh medicine, but it is, unfortunately, in a situation where it is not medicine for the masses. Because, obviously, well, train conditions are going to cost a lot of money. And not only that, it's you know, you take a patient on a journey back to wellness. That could be could be 18 months. And, and so, you know, unfortunately, biological density is gonna be the same. But the evidence is there. And, you know, I think just on some absolute, you know, basics is, you know, and I think if we take it back to the mercury aspects, it just, it's been crazy, really, that we've put such a toxic material into some people's mouths and expect it not to have an impact somewhere. And so part of our genomics panel was to try and identify the Canaries in the in the coal mine from our point of view of mercury, because I was always keen to get an understanding. And we have many patients who come to me and say, should I have my mercury amalgams out? And my key for me is to go, Well, number one, do we know that these mercury amalgams are affecting the patient? I think we don't. But, you know, are we seeing signs and symptoms of something that could look like mercury poisoning over time? And how do we look at that? And how do we test for that? But are we looking at a patient where they may have susceptible genetics, to both exposure to mercury? And then of course, Mercury detoxification? And then, of course, what we don't know is where does the mercury go?

And you know, because obviously, every time you have a cup of tea or hot materials, you're going to create some degree of mercury vapour from that feeling. And so there's lots and lots of nuances. I don't understand the role by any means. I don't think anyone does. But But what I've always wanted to do is be able to give my patients a more informed opinion, with regards to mercury amalgams, and the health for sure, I would never advise some patient Yeah, get them all out without really having done some decent due diligence on them. And that's what I've tried to do. With regards to the add on to the to the, to one of the tests that we've made, we want to look at some of the known gene variants that are associated with problems with mercury. So if you've got a patient who's incredibly sick, you've got a patient that has all the symptoms associated symptoms of mercury overload, if you have a patient that has susceptible genotypes that you can test for, then you're bringing them more to a degree of clinical certainty that Yeah, okay, this might be a smart thing to do. And then we just got to organise when to do it with the appropriate people. So yes, I think and again, I again, this brings us back to the question is do do I believe that much the problem with people is that we just live in an incredibly toxic world. Absolutely. And I think anything that we're you can and daily detoxify. And again, I want to be careful with using the terminology because I'm not a you know, I'm not a guy who says yeah, go and do, you know, go do green juices every morning. And you know, there's nothing wrong with green juices Of course, but That's not gonna solve your detoxification issues. And again, it's so so. So being toxic, I think we've got to be very careful with the terms that we use. Because, again, it would be well what do you mean by that? How do we measure it? And then what can we do about it. And so we've got to not use our terms loosely. But so that's why we've tried to be more and more clear, it's almost like build clinical certainty, almost like a clinical certainty tree, that we're giving our patient as much information as what we understand that yeah, that might be a smart thing to do. But I think timing is also crucial, not as well as that. I'm not keen on detoxifying people who are inherently sick, unless it's the last sort of gasps that they've got, because any any detoxification process is incredibly energy dependent. So you've got to be careful with certain people. And of course, the detoxification process can make a lot of people much sicker. So it's not something that you can you can go into lightly. Although, you know, if you looked on the internet, you know, you looked on things that everyone seems to be doing. And you know, maybe that's just a use of terminology. But it comes down to fundamental, you've got to do the basics. Well, I mean, and even on that, I mean, people don't just a simple example is people don't sweat anymore. You know, it's like, well, when's the last time you sweat? Well, I don't I don't sweat. That because you're not exercising, or you're not exercising enough. Now just just, you think, Wow, okay, well, you know, that's definitely a detoxification route that we want to try and organise or, you know, people are not going to toilet is another aspect where we think on a very basic level, forget everything you've been told, let's just get your bowels moving. And then we'll worry about and that will help us to, you know, decrease your if you like your, your toxic load. And because your systems are working a bit better. So again, lots of nuances around that.

Tony Winyard 42:00

Just going back to something you said, probably early on in the episode about people really need to take, it's very important to take care of the mouth and with regular cleaning and flossing, and so on. So for anyone who's now maybe concerned that they're not doing enough, what, what would you say, is would be a good routine for taking care of their mouth.

Pete Williams 42:21

So I would say that the most important thing is, as you say, going to the hygienist and a dentist, for me is as important as keeping yourself fit. It's the new gym. And so there's your starting position, is that making the connection that dentistry is an incredible, incredibly important aspect to your systemic health. So you need to be attending the dentist, the dental hygiene is regular. And it's a mistake time a never Well, as you say is that I never recognised the importance of it. So that would be the number one is that let's come get a baseline. Let's go and speak to your dental hygienists and get an indication of where you're at. Second thing then is, again, is what do you do on a daily basis. And that is really is that you probably need to start spending more attention with regards to how you clean your teeth, when you clean your teeth. And what else do you do? Are you using you know floss? Or are you using incidentals? And and that would be the absolute basics of where you would start. And in many ways, you know it's a bit laughable really is that we've built all this programme, we built all this training. And sometimes you just need to have a test for an individual to go. And that's why you really need to start cleaning your teeth well every day. So people come to was expecting you know that work, because we're quite an established practice that we're going to do all this sort of supercooled testing, and that's going to reveal everything, Tony, and there's no doubt we can do that. But it still comes back to before you spend all the money. Let's get some fundamentals that you are doing the fundamental basics Well, yeah, and because there that is where you're going to get the biggest results. The biggest bang for your buck on this journey. Do the fundamental basics well get in contact with your dentist, go and see the hygienist because that physical daily removal is so crucial. Because you know what the plaque the plaque is a plaque and tartar on your teeth is an established biofilm. It is an established city of bacteria and bacteria. they've they've been they've been on this planet much much longer than we have. So they are incredibly smart. And when they find a nice place to live like on T four below the gum margins, they start doing this thing called quorum quorum sensing. What that means is they start going hey, we're building a really great house here. Do you want to come in live in our in our community and so they lol is over bacteria start going yeah, that sounds great and start living with it. So this is why being Physical removal of plaque is so important because you're moving these really tough residual houses that your bacteria have built. And it's an ongoing process. And unfortunately, with T YT, if it's so difficult with T is that they don't shed. So, T for teeth, they don't renew, they are what they are. And that's where, you know, the actual, your mouth actually has a much thicker layer than the gastrointestinal tract, where it's weaknesses always where the teeth are. Because that gives you the entrance, potentially below the gum line, and also the entrance for bacteria into the body. And so the physical removal of those are so so important from that. And then you could get into, you know, making sure that again, over time, the diet becomes more and more prominent you are eating, again, a very much a sort of Mediterranean style diet that has lots of these phytochemical compounds, these polyphenols that actually change the health of the microbiome in the mouth, and therefore in very simple terms, you're generating more and more good guys and bad guys, you're offsetting that. So again, this is where various aspects of diet matter. I think there's lots of evidence now coming out with regards to mouth breathing, and understanding the importance of trying to breathe in a different way, not so much, not so much from a mouth breather, and we're definitely seeing evidence of people who are mouth breathing at night, you know, and you'll see this much more in in type two diabetics in, you know, patients that have a tendency to more overweight than they are more susceptible to having changes in the microbiome, from a point of the oral microbiome from the point of view of, you know, you're going to change that environment that is more likely to be to be bad guys.

And so it really is, you know, do some of the fundamentals first and then think about the sort of secondary that needs to go behind that. But it always comes back to basics for me. You know, I think people think as you say, Yes, we can do 10s of 1000s pounds worth of testing, or well in great, but it comes down to the basic idea, the basics well, and if you're not, why is that and again, we taught, we taught at the beginning is that sometimes because they have unconscious behaviours that they don't know they're doing, and you've got to get on top of those over time as well,

Tony Winyard 47:27

I want to get get into that in just a minute. But before we get into that, I'm wondering about mouthwash and the microbiome and also, you talked about mouth breathing, and how much of a, how detrimental is mouth breathing to the bacteria in the mouth?

Pete Williams 47:45

It's a really good question, I think on what we're what and this is, again, new to me. And this was just exposed to me by working with some of these dentists is that if you use my example, who is desperate always desperately, you know, a good day I exercise a lot. You know, I'm doing all the right things. And yet, you know, I'm a genetically susceptible person to periodontal disease. But you know, the dentists are starting to think for me, and they've had a look at the way my structure my jaw is and my windpipe and we've done all these x rays. And they potentially believe that some of my problems are because maybe I mouth breathe at night. And so they are, they are absolutely clear that the more you mouth breathe, the more potential you have that you're changing the microbiome and within the mouth. So it does seem to be problematic. Yes.

Tony Winyard 48:40

And the mouthwash question.

Pete Williams 48:41

So the mouthwash question. Again, I think it's a, I think there's a few nuances around this. There are, there are certain mouthwashes that contain certain chemicals, one of them is called clora hexa diene, that actually while it has a potential to wipe out a lot of the bacteria on the back of the tongue. But again, remember, every place will have a microbial group that are sort of doing things. And what we've learned on that is that in there's actually an English study about four years ago, showed that the bacteria on the back of the tongue, if affected by mouthwashes, that have clora hex then can actually change the way these bacteria change nitrates from food. So we have all these foods beet root would be a really good example that produce these nitrates. And what those bacteria do as they start the process of chert of changing nitrates into nitric oxide. nitric oxide in the body in good levels is incredibly valuable, particularly from a point of view of vascular tension. arterial tension, we know is that nitric oxide becomes this incredible sort of protective gas for the arteries in the cardiovascular system. And of course, if you're eating food And trying to get the nitrates on it, and you've disturbed them there. But the bacteria that do that, then the evidence suggests that you're going to have potentially have increased blood pressure. So yes, I think is that every time we put chemicals in our mouth, we have to think about whether that chemical has an association with potentially changing the microbiome. So the more we go away from food as mother nature, and grandma wanted us to eat, I think the the potential increased risk exists from from that perspective.

Tony Winyard 50:32

Are there safe mouthwashes?

Pete Williams 50:34

There's lots, there's so many, again, there has been an explosion of dentistry, and products that are associated with helping your microbiome with helping, and particularly flora. Again, fluoride is another argument. And there are I mean, I mean, I mean, so again, there's a big argument about fluoride. There's no doubt that fluoride reduces dental cavities, no doubt about that. But are there alternatives to fluoride that show up just as well? I think the answer to that is yes, we've seen a lot of the research over the last 2030 years from from Japan, looking at a bone compound called hydroxy apatite. And so there are lots of, you know, integrative dentistry products now that are started saying, Well, you know, fluoride is fundamentally designed for this, we know our product is natural, it has no side effects or potential side effects. And it stacks up against fluoride so why wouldn't you use it? Well, I know the difficulty with this of course, they cost a lot more. And there are some brilliant products that we use that are herbal related for some brilliant companies that clinically give us incredible outcomes. But again, they're expensive. So you know, if if money is not an object, then those products are out there, there are oral microbiome mouthwashes that you can take at night again, great products make a lot of sense they're looking in and almost what you're looking at is you're identifying the sort of the, the, the good bacteria that goes to war with the potential pathogen and so what these companies are doing is that we know these bacteria or these bacterial groups actually will go and dislodge or displace or kill these other groups and so you get a lot of oral probiotic products that have been built now man and I've used them all week um you know I have an oral mouthwash at night that is a probiotic that again, swirl it around my mouth for a minute and swallow it then so I get the benefits of it you know down the gastrointestinal tract and yeah, seems they seem to work so there's absolutely loads of companies starting to enter this space again I bring you back to why are they entering the space is because the scientists there and so whilst you're going to get the naysayers while you're going to say that that's not correct, you can always go back say well, you know where you're coming from, because the science is here to suggest that this product is as good if not better than fluoride and we don't have to worry about any potential toxic side effects. So the world's changed on that side and you know, the but the only thing I would say, but they do cost more Yeah, and there's always a sort of cost implication to anything that we do. It's a bit like you know, reg, regular dentistry trips, it's gonna cost you a bit more but how much more of that trip has been associated with a point of view of this might have been susceptible individuals, one of the most important things that they can do for their ongoing health and so that's where you identify the susceptible individuals it's a bit like that rheumatoid arthritis patient is that her biggest biggest thing to protect her health going forward to keep her rheumatoid pretty much in remission is that she's on top of going to see the dentist that I wanted to see on a three monthly basis so that we know we've got everything under control, and we're calm on that allows me to do my job much much easier as well. So what I you know, you start to get an individual where you can identify with an individual, what is the most important place for you to spend your money on your health? And so again, I think that is understanding that well allows you to to really individualise and personalise that, that patients that patients programme and that side.

Tony Winyard 54:34

You touched on behavioural sciences now and before the episode we were talking about when you first became a functional medicine practitioner and how much you've learned since then about the importance of behaviour and so on. I thought it was fascinating what you said. Could you maybe talk about that?

Pete Williams 54:57

so yeah, I I think there's a I wonder why sometimes patients come in and they've been, you know, they have an indoctrination with regards to how medical care should be. So I think whenever a patient comes in, you have to understand where the biases are coming from. And I don't mean that in a horrible way. But if you've only known the dentist and the NHS, you're indoctrinated to that, well, this is how medicine works. When patients come to us with chronic diseases that have you know, that have that have been there for a very long time. We try to try and always make sure our patients understand why, why they've arrived. And that will be because they will have genetic susceptibilities. That I've been an exaggerated based on the way they've lived their lives. As a strong component of that, Tony, how they lived, their lives are usually down to the behaviours that they've created, mainly unconsciously, of how they live their lives. So let me give you an example. I dealt with a head of a very large organisation, she was the and there's a word for it, and I cannot remember it for now. But there's the head legal person of a huge international corporation. And here was a man completely on the edge. But his be earned completely on the edge at work completely on the edge when he went home. And so, and this man is looking for answers for me to solve. For, as I said to him, I said, Look, let's look at some of your behaviours of how you live your life, you go to work, you have an incredibly stressful job. And as a consequence of that, because of the stress from work, and the time you've got to spend at work, you've got some relationship breakdowns at home, because you're never there. And so you've gone from one fire straight into another fire, you know, where's the chance that you get just a little bit of sincerity in your life? And daily? Where do you find the quiet time? You don't you go from one trauma to another trauma. And that's fundamentally those behaviours are some of the fundamentals that are driving your sickness. And until we make some behavioural changes on those, we can't get you to where you want to get. And you're going to have to make some changes, and you're going to have to upset that one. Because I will tell you where we will be in six months. If we don't do that. We'll get you better to an extent. But we won't get what you're expected. Because, in many ways, what we see and we talked about this, Tony didn't, I said that as a very established practice and experienced practice. I'm more I'm more interested in who is the patient? How does the patient How does the patient exist? What is their life, like, I'm less interested in the disease, I understand the mechanisms of disease. But what I don't understand is what behaviours drive those mechanisms to be more exaggerated, until you understand who your patient is, you're never fully going to get the resolving of everything, because you've got to let them know that these are the primary drivers of why they're in the disease process. And until you get the ability to change many of their behaviours, a lot of them will be unconsciously LED. And we've been very fortunate to also to be able to get to dive into some of the the genetics with regards to behaviours, why people do certain things. And you know, and that's down to dopamine systems, that's down to understanding serotonin that's down to understanding some of the some of the neurocognitive genes like BDNF and getting that much greater understanding is, you know, why is this guy never happy? When he's just on a major deal? Why is he got to move on to the next major deal. And the reason is, that is because he has gene variants that mean there is he is, he can't celebrate because his glasses always empty genetically. And so some of his behaviours, again, are unconsciously driven, simply because his genes are dictating that. And you put those gene variants into a stressful environment, and you see them play out, you see them more exaggerated and play out. So the skills of a clinician for me

what I never take a patient on, unless they have a robust understanding that I need to understand the story behind the story behind the story is it's usually the story behind the story behind the story, that are the behaviours that are driving the illness. And, and that's absolutely crucial. And we've learned, I've learned, you know, I say I've seen 1000s of patients over many years, and I've made many mistakes on that and you You just get to the point now where you've been doing it for a long time, that you've got to be true to yourself, and you got to be true and honest to your patient to say, unless you're ready for us to do that, we're not potentially going to get the outcomes that you're expected. This is not a transactional relationship, I need to, I need to understand you, I need to understand how you think on a daily basis, I need to understand the stresses and strains behind you, you know, and understand that because if I don't understand you, and what goes to make you here on this day, I will never understand how I get you better. And so, so we are less about the disease, we are more about understanding the patient, you've got like everything, you have to be able, patients cannot come to see us without upsetting that they are going to have to make some changes by the way they lose their lives, it's crazy. That said, a lot of patients who maybe are new to functional medicine may be getting the wrong view of what functional medicine is, oh, we'll do these new kill tests, you'll give me some supplementation, and you might change my diet, and everything's going to be sorted, I would say couldn't be any further from the truth. Although a lot of what you see on social media and on the internet will give you that impression. It's as easy as that. It's never as easy as that. We never see that. And, and so as you say, There's got to be an acceptance, and you've got to be able to, as you say, Be honest with your patient about what the journey looks like, and what the time frame looks like. And you know what their role is going to be. Because one of the other key aspects I will say to them is, it's not my role to get you better. You have to be the captain of your own ship, and you have to be ready to make changes, I can't do that for you. You know, and I won't do that for you. So you can pay me as much money as you want. I can even remember, an investment banker said that he was going to give me triple the amount of money, they want to get him the results that he wanted. And I said, you just don't understand the process, I can't do it for you, you've got to be able to do that yourself, I can't do that for you. So no amount of money is going to be able to change what I do as a practice because you have to be that you have to be the head of the change. I can't do that for you. And so again, this is the understanding of what is it RHS? What is it that Sorry, my, my little son has just sent me a message. What is it that is needed from that relationship to allow that relationship to work on a day to day basis, and on a long term basis. And I know you're you're moving into study and coaching at the moment, and the behavioural sciences of it. absolutely crucial. For me, you know, being able to change people's behaviours are some of the most important breakthroughs that you'll ever meet with a patient. It's less for me about what the testing tells us. The testing is a reflection of their genes, their environment and where their life is. And so results on a test how it will no matter how bad on what solves the patient's health? Yeah, understanding why those results are there. And what has brought us to this point. And the story of this patient is what fundamentally will get them better.

Tony Winyard 1:03:38

How do you see medicine and the approach to medicine changing in the next 5, 10 years?

Pete Williams 1:03:45

Well, I think you've always going to have two sides, you're going to have the acute medicine side, I don't think that needs to change. I think it's incredible. You know, if you go outside and get smashed by a car, you're gonna want that emergency acute medicine style. And that is gonna save your life. You know, if you come in, you've developed sepsis, then he might need a week's worth of intravenous antibiotics, they're going to save your life. And so that acute mode is funny. I was on having a conversation with a with a pharmacist about this this morning. But even with that, I think there is going to be a bigger thought process that goes around that now. And I think that's slowly changing. So yes, you know, what do we need to do now to keep this patient alive? Well, we're going to pump them, pump them full of life saving antibiotics that save them, but then there's going to need to be a conversation and say, Okay, well, we get them through the initial bit. So but we just need to think about the potential consequences that all those antibiotics might have done to the microbiome. And I think there is a there are signs that people are thinking about that way. I would like to think that that acute medicine is going to start having system thinkers like you know, like myself, who would say Well, that's all well and Good that, you know, if we've not taken care of these over aspects, this patient may be back with a chronic illness in in three or four years, because we never dealt with that, yeah, sure we kept him alive, but then we've given him another disease. And there is no doubt, I think COVID has accelerated people's perceptions that the NHS isn't going to solve all your issues. And I don't mean that from the NHS is a wonderful service, but they are designed to do things in a certain way. And, and from our point of view of taking code of lifestyle, they're not really set up for it. So what I also think on that is, I think we have to wake up and take responsibility for our own health. Now I get it, why we do, it's because we've been indoctrinated in the system, that we go to the doctors, and then we go to that, and they solve our health, they don't, and I think that needs to change, yeah, you and you're going to have to look after yourself, and you're gonna have to spend a bit of cash on yourself, it is what it is, I don't see any way out of that. But what I also see through COVID, is that people are starting to wake up, you know, through the trauma of COVID, to say, Well, you know, I'm not going to be seen for a couple of years here, the NHS just can't do it. So you know, maybe I need to start taking charge myself. So I think that's one of the great things about it. And so I see system thinkers, and becoming more and more into very acute care medicine for short. And I also see conventional medicine. And whether that is you know, GP practices bringing in or having a an arm of them where they're sending the acute patient. So we have quite a few GPS who may be can't deal with really complex cases of of lifestyle, and they either give us a quick call, and you know, we're always happy to have a conversation with them, or indeed, they send their patients to us. And so I think there's more and more. And I think what's quite interesting about this is it's that, you know, not all the best system thinkers are traditional MDS. I mean, I'm not, I'm not a medical doctor. But you know, I've had 25 years of being able to think in a certain way, and you can immediately sort of come into an acute care situation and go, Well, you know, okay, I get that. But we've got to think about x, y, and Zed for this patient as we go forward. So I think

it's more and more becoming more normal, more accepted. And I think again, that is because I always like to start fundamentally from is the science to back this up? And if there is great, okay, so how do we integrate that? And that's always my starting point. my starting point is, is the science robust enough that this is a pathway, you can go down? Yes. How does this integrate into this big system of you being the conductor of an orchestra, and what you're trying to do is work out what parts of this orchestra is, is broken, and not playing great music? And how do you make these integrations make these pattern recognitions make these different systems all start to play slightly sweeter music over time. There's a huge role for that. But also, within that, that's how I see certainly our group's role. But within that, you may occasionally need the consultant in the woodwind because there's a few few nuances in the woodwind section that you're just maybe not understand. Or there's something wrong in the strings, and you're going to need to go to the, you know, to the cardiologist or to the gynaecologist to say, look, here's our patient, you know, here's, we need a little bit more help on your aspects, and then be able to just continue to oversee things. From our point of view of CAD, we've had that done. So how does music play at the moment? So I do think there is, there is there has to be more integration, because I think there are some incredibly smart people out there who can be incredibly helpful for healthcare. And and I think there's a recognition of that as well, that, you know, I think if you look at some of the stuff that Cleveland Clinic in the US is doing, you know, you're starting to see very much different medical models coming into what we would consider conventional medicine and understanding where we're where does this fit within this sort of chronic disease picture, that, again, is our diseases of lifestyle. And you can't solve that in, you know, in acute care, it's impossible to do so you've got to have an understanding of, well, you know, how do we take this patient through this process? So over over a long period of time,

Tony Winyard 1:10:03

Pete, there's probably about 100. more questions,I would love to rask but I want to be respectful of your time because iwe've gone way over the hour mark now. So if people want to find out more about you, where's the best places?

Pete Williams 1:10:13

It's good question. I think very simply, probably our website https://www.functional-medicine.associates/ I think that's probably, the best place, to engage I would have thought.

Tony Winyard 1:10:32

Are you or anyone in your practice active on social media?

Pete Williams 1:10:37

We are yes and no, I think is the answer to that. We're having a conversation about that at the moment about should we become what we ebb and flow with social media. So we do have some social media channels. But sometimes we fall in love with it, and then fall out of love with it. So so we definitely got a presence. And we would love it, if anyone wants to sign up to it, we, I mean, you know, what, we've always been a practice where we've just been in the trenches. So it's not really been as important for us, but we are accepting that. I mean, you know, even after, in some degree, we've been going 20 years, we still don't have a, we still don't have a newsletter. And so we've been slow to that side. Because we've been so sort of head down in trying to understand people that, you know, sometimes we forget the sort of bigger marketing picture. But we were definitely trying to become better at it. Tony, when were the absolute novices at that, so so we would like to, we would definitely like to get better at it for sure.

Tony Winyard 1:11:47

And just before we finish, is there, is there a quotation that comes to mind that you particularly like?

Pete Williams 1:11:56

There is, and it's always for me. So I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but it really is, the shift stops with you. And what I mean by that is that you are the captain of your own ship as far as you have. And if you're not the captain of that ship, and then I think that, you know, is is always problematic, no one else as you say, you have to take charge. And so that's always been my I think that's always been my key fundamental in life is that, you know, is that if you want things to change, you have to drive it, and particularly from the health perspective, because it's a key message that we always say to our patients, is that, you know, number one, you have to be ready for change. And we've got to, we've got a look at what, you know, what this change look like and, and be, you know, again, when your goal setting to be realistic about what that change looks like. But you've one of the other key lines that I say to my patients is, if I'm having to do more work than you, on your on your file, and there's something wrong with that relationship. So, yeah, so there are probably a few there were, you know, there they some of the key messages that we, we need to give to our patients, because, you know, again, I know, you're doing a lot of the behavioural side, and there are sort of, you know, there are stages of people wanting to engage in behavioural change, but maybe you're not quite ready. And that's okay. You know, we've we've sent many patients away, because we, they're just not quite ready for what they need to do for the outcomes they're expecting. Yeah. And that's okay, as well, because obviously, we we tend to go through stages of readiness for change, and some people just aren't at that stage to do it. And what I would say, Tony, is that when they are, I'm not gonna say it's easy, but it's sort of is quite smooth. It's quite a smooth process. Yeah, you know, this doesn't seem to be many, many sort of, it's not problematic, it jet tends to move smoothly, because what you're implementing your patient is doing because they're ready. And suddenly, it's like, Is it really this easy? And sometimes it is, it's ridiculously easy, simply because they've decided that it's time for change, and they're doing exactly what you're saying. And with that becomes all these results. And so, you know, I think if only we could have a practice where everyone who comes to that practice is ready, because and you know, almost we almost think about, you know, maybe we should just have people in almost that then so that, you know, it makes those look amazing, because, you know, it's easier, it's much, much easier when people are ready. Yeah. It just makes the journey so much more efficient, less time consuming, less expensive, because they've done exactly what you've told them to do. You know, and suddenly, you know, these results are coming really, really quickly.

Tony Winyard 1:14:57

Pete, I would love to have you back for for a second episode at some stage because I, I know there's so much more information listeners would love that you'd be able to help them with so. So yeah, thank you very much, it's been really informative, fascinating. I can think of 1000 adjectives, but it's been. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. Next week habits in health Episode 36 with Justin Frandson. Justin is in athleticism performance coach, and he's worked with amateur and professional athletes for the past two decades. And he's seen athletes breaking down from the excessive levels of emf from their smartwatches wireless earbuds and electric cars. And he's tested hundreds of homes and clients and he sells grounding and Faraday bags at doctor clinics throughout the US and in many other countries as well. And we talk about EMF and the dangers and the problems that it's causing. And about moisture and magnetic properties in the ground and how they repel EMF and many other areas around that whole topic. So that's next week, Episode 35 with Justin Frandson. Hope you enjoyed this week's episode with Pete Williams. If you know anyone who would get some real value from this, please do share the episode with them. I hope you have a great week.

Jingle 1:16:19

Thanks for tuning in to the habits and health podcast where we believe creating healthy habits should be easy. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review on your favourite podcast app. Sign up for email updates and learn about coaching and workshop opportunities. TonyWinyard.com. See you next time on the habits & health podcast.

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